Welcome to SHOO-SHOO, RAH-RAH!, the Duquesne Dukes Basketball Fans Message Board!!!!
One of America's Great Message Boards


You know the rules, all inappropriate messages will be deleted!


PLEASE POST LINKS TO NEWSPAPER STORIES


You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?



10/06/2017 6:11 pm  #1


 

10/06/2017 7:16 pm  #2


Re: Amari Kelly signs

lol what the heck is going on with this team?

you know, it doesn't matter as long as it's legal. But that's *FIVE* excellent signs and four of them are some tall dudes.


WE HAVE A SOCCER FORUM NOW
I hate myself for loving you.
 

10/06/2017 7:18 pm  #3


Re: Amari Kelly signs

This is a excellent commitment for DU.  Kelly has a motor that doesn't quit, and will be the shot blocker PF that we haven't seen since James.  Rothstein believes he would have been a high major pick if had waited till spring.

https://twitter.com/coreyevans_10/status/916416971943612416








 

Last edited by CLK (10/06/2017 7:20 pm)

 

10/06/2017 7:55 pm  #4


Re: Amari Kelly signs

Where are all these tall gentleman going to play - hahaha !!!!!!!!!!!

Holy Toledo , this staff is full of  recruiting demons !!!!

It is obvious that coach D. has a plan.

 

10/06/2017 11:44 pm  #5


Re: Amari Kelly signs

I guess that 2 members of the current team won't be back.

 

10/06/2017 11:50 pm  #6


Re: Amari Kelly signs

There is plenty of time for the scholarship situation to sort itself.  Yes it could be that players from this year’s team could transfer.  But, you could also have somebody de-commit.  The walk on scenario is out there, too.  Not much use worrying about it.  KD has a recruiting plan and if he is taking a few chances, that is fine with me.  It will work out

 

10/07/2017 3:41 pm  #7


Re: Amari Kelly signs

duq81 wrote:

I guess that 2 members of the current team won't be back.

The Dukes are hypothetically 3 over if you do the math.  However I would caution not to jump to conclusions.  Two players, for example, might be on academic scholarship and are actually preferred "walk-on" players.  Not saying that is the case but we have a couple players with high academic achievements.  We could also have other players paying their own way (maybe somebody is not academically qualified).  Maybe their is somebody injured who will not return.  We just don't know at this point. I trust Dambrot and things will soon be clear. I saw where there is a Bonaventure a-hole making a big stink about on the A-10 board.  I think is is just afraid because Dambrot will soon be punishing his Bonnies and other teams in the League.  Go Dukes! 

Last edited by CLK (10/07/2017 9:23 pm)

 

10/08/2017 6:56 am  #8


Re: Amari Kelly signs

Well while the Bunnies are handing out engineering degrees that don't exist there, maybe one of their geniuses will figure out only 5 guys can play on the court at once.
 

     Thread Starter
 

10/09/2017 8:54 am  #9


Re: Amari Kelly signs

I am not worried, it will sort itself out.  Almost always does.
I just hope our version of the Fab 5 all sign their names to paper and end up at DU.  Could be an impressive class.
 

 

10/10/2017 1:16 pm  #10


Re: Amari Kelly signs

CLK wrote:

duq81 wrote:

I guess that 2 members of the current team won't be back.

The Dukes are hypothetically 3 over if you do the math.  However I would caution not to jump to conclusions.  Two players, for example, might be on academic scholarship and are actually preferred "walk-on" players.  Not saying that is the case but we have a couple players with high academic achievements. 

If we've made offers and received verbal commitments from 5 players, then all 5 are recruited athletes and would count against the athletic scholarship limit, even if they qualified for, and received, a full academic scholarship. See this LINK under Scholarship Rules.

But yes, this will all sort itself out. None of these kids have signed letters of intent yet so they may not all end up coming to Duquesne. All five are HS seniors; some could end up in prep schools for more development when all's said and done. I'm not sure I can recall a season when every kid who was eligible to come back, did, at least not in the last decade or so. Tarin Smith will have the opportunity to finish his eligibility somewhere else as a graduate transfer in 2018-19 if he so chooses. Mike Hughes is rehabbing for surgery to repair stress fractures in both shins. Stress fractures that require surgery are severe injuries that can take years to fully recover from, especially for a big man in basketball. Some other underclassmen on the current roster may have the opportunity to transfer up to bigger programs and some may be better served by transferring down for more playing time. 

In the meantime, I'm pretty impressed with how aggressive this coaching staff has been in recruiting and how successful they've been in selling kids on coming to Duquesne. We still need to see results on the court of course, but so far, they seem to be ahead of the game in the supposedly impossible situation that is Duquesne basketball. 

 

10/10/2017 2:15 pm  #11


Re: Amari Kelly signs

Dennis thanks for the link.  After read this it was not clear to me that "being recruited" makes a player count against the athletic scholarship limit.  I refer to this statement in the article:

 In NCAA-speak, recruited does not mean what it normally means. A prospect is recruited for financial aid purposes if one of the following things happens:


  • A coach has in-person contact with the prospect off-campus;
  • The prospect takes an official visit to the campus; or
  • The school sent the prospect a National Letter of Intent or other written athletic scholarship offer.

Because of this definition, there’s a lot of recruiting that can happen without a prospect being considered “recruited”:

  • Coaches can evaluate prospects any number of times.
  • Coaches can call prospects any number of times.
  • Prospects can take unlimited unofficial visits to the campus.
  • Coaches can make verbal scholarship offers to prospects.

So a prospect can be heavily recruited, in the traditional sense, without being considered recruited according to the NCAA. Knowing and managing your status as recruited or nonrecruited according to this definition is important to maximize financial aid opportunities.

I am hopefull that or friend VBC and others, will soon get first hand clarification from coach Dambrot.

Last edited by CLK (10/10/2017 2:17 pm)

 

10/10/2017 2:24 pm  #12


Re: Amari Kelly signs

Dennis: 

A federal class action suit was instituted in 2010 after and different in nature to the O'BANNON suit against the power 5 school conferences and the NCAA by former and then current athletes who had received athletic scholarships or grants-in-aid that were subject to the limitations restrictions (COUNTERS, AS YOU IDENTIFIED THEM) then imposed by the NCAA.   Football, men's BB and women's BB scholarship limitations were at issue. 

Long story short!  The NCAA, in February, 2017 agreed to pay $208 Million plus to eligible members of the class, with each member being projected to receive $6,500 plus or minus.  But the important part of the story is that in 2015, while the litigation was pending and before the final settlement dollar amount was arrived at,  the NCAA agreed to change the financial aid rules governing the total amount of scholarships available to NCAA member institutions.  In effect the NCAA increased the amount of "counters" that member schools could have in those three sports (football and the two BB sports.)  The GIA (Grant In Aid) and cost of attendance (COA) value placed on the football or basketball "counter" value of attending a particular school  became key components of what the NCAA permitted as changes to help level the playing field so less affluent schools could compete for valued athletes without "over" recruiting.  The attached link discusses what happened from 2010 to the time of settlement.  A lot of it is legalese and sometimes a bit tough to follow.  There are three or four other articles discussing this issue.  This case was monitored by the same judge who monitored the O'BANNON case.  

I believe the article you cited predated the settlement above noted.  More importantly, I think our coach and AD are on top of what happened  in this case and would not be a bit surprised if this was the basis for coach KD"s recruiting game plan.


http://www.grantinaidsettlement.com/frequently-asked-questions.aspx#a7

 

10/10/2017 2:58 pm  #13


Re: Amari Kelly signs

Yes, I suppose you're right, CLK, until these kids actually sign LOIs, they may not actually be considered "recruited" by the NCAA as we don't know whether the "offers" they've accepted were written or verbal. And of course, until they sign LOIs, we won't know that they're actually coming to Duquesne.

Just the same, I don't think we'd want to see Duquesne get into the habit of offering kids, getting verbals from kids, who then never sign LOIs and end up at the school on non-athletic scholarships as, in effect, walk-ons. Aside from the inevitable Rick Pitino comparisons, I'm pretty sure that would attract unwanted scrutiny from a bit more than cranky Bonaventure fans and I don't think we'll see that happen here. With all the transfer-ineligibles becoming eligible next year, I'm really not sure I see the need for such maneuvering. 

 

10/10/2017 3:10 pm  #14


Re: Amari Kelly signs

Gram, I'm confused. I thought the class action settlement you cited was about full athletic scholarships not covering the full cost of attending a Division 1 school. If I remember correctly, Duquesne had signed on to provide additional financial aid--beyond tuition, room and board and books--to cover these incidental costs. They pretty much have to in order to compete with the football schools (which were the schools targeted by the class action suit). But what does that have to do with how many scholarships are available? The limit is still 13 for Division 1 men's basketball, no?

 

10/10/2017 3:30 pm  #15


Re: Amari Kelly signs

Dennis, so we are talking apples to apples, I have no doubt that all 5 for next year are full athletic scholarship.  They are all high level players.  What I was really suggesting is an existing player like Kratholm who was valedictorian of his class might be on academic scholarship.  

Last edited by CLK (10/10/2017 3:33 pm)

 

10/10/2017 3:44 pm  #16


Re: Amari Kelly signs

CLK wrote:

Dennis, so we are talking apples to apples, I have no doubt that all 5 for next year are full athletic scholarship.  They are all high level players.  What I was really suggesting is an existing player like Kratholm who was valedictorian of his class might be on academic scholarship.  

I don't recall ever seeing that kratholm received any D1 offers. It is certainly conceivable that, given his extraordinary academic record, he would qualify for a full or near full academic scholarship from the school.

 

10/10/2017 3:58 pm  #17


Re: Amari Kelly signs

Dennis: 

You are not confused!  You are 100 % correct on what the lawsuit was about.  However, as I noted, the NCAA, before the settlement agreed amount was reached, agreed separately with the schools to allow additional "counters"  without penalty to the schools who chose to add the added "counters".  My  point is that I believe our coach and AD are  on top of things, are 100% legit and all of us long-suffering fans should enjoy the ride they are giving us.  Indeed, it seems to me that a guy like Krathorn would be a poster child "counter" envisioned by the change in rules made by the NCAA, which change in turn was spawned by the lawsuit I cited for members of this board.  

Last edited by grammudder (10/10/2017 3:59 pm)

 

10/10/2017 4:24 pm  #18


Re: Amari Kelly signs

I've wondered about Kratholm myself, CLK, as he's got the academic chops (biomedical engineering major/math minor) as you said, and as Dukes2012 mentioned, he really wasn't recruited much that I can find any record of. But just to be clear, he did sign an NLI with Duquesne, which means he's on an athletic scholarship and would still count as an athletic scholarship even if he was moved to academic scholarship. I recall when Marshall Macheledt staged a formal signing ceremony at his high school to announce he was going to (walking on at) Duquesne, but this was an actual press release put out by Duquesne so I assume it's legit.

 

10/10/2017 4:44 pm  #19


Re: Amari Kelly signs

grammudder wrote:

Dennis: 

You are not confused!  You are 100 % correct on what the lawsuit was about.  However, as I noted, the NCAA, before the settlement agreed amount was reached, agreed separately with the schools to allow additional "counters"  without penalty to the schools who chose to add the added "counters".  My  point is that I believe our coach and AD are  on top of things, are 100% legit and all of us long-suffering fans should enjoy the ride they are giving us.  Indeed, it seems to me that a guy like Krathorn would be a poster child "counter" envisioned by the change in rules made by the NCAA, which change in turn was spawned by the lawsuit I cited for members of this board.  

Thanks, Gramm. Do you have a link about these "additional counters"? The scholarship limit is still 13, but if there is a formal way to get around that, beyond the link that I shared about how non-athletic aid can be made available to non-recruited players, I'd be interested in reading up on it. Interestingly enough, I did some Googling around and came across a proposal put forth by the Atlantic 10 more than a decade ago that allowed for schools to claim an "additional counter" once every two years for extraordinary circumstances, such as injuries (hello Mike Hughes-Frankie Hughes) but that proposal was defeated by the NCAA in 2004. Has it come back in some form? Please do share the link if you have one. 

 

10/10/2017 5:14 pm  #20


Re: Amari Kelly signs

Dennis,these rules are very confusing, and with the changes especially confusing.  I think you can sign a NLI and receive a Grant in Aid "GIA" not an athletic scholarship.  Read this and let me know your thoughts.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CFB/comments/2vufq5/what_are_the_advantages_of_signing_a_letter_of/

 

10/10/2017 5:21 pm  #21


Re: Amari Kelly signs

Our roster prior to any signings had Jordan Robinson, Tarin Smith, Mike Lewis II, Eric James, and Rene Castro-Caneddy. Robinson, James, Castro-Caneddy are all heading into their final year of eligibility.

5 scholarship players on the roster for 2017-18; 2 for 2018-19.

April 25 - Duquesne University head men's basketball coach Keith Dambrot announced that junior college transfer Marko Krivacevic along with freshmen Nicholas Kratholm, Tydus Verhoeven, and Eric Williams, Jr. have signed National Letters of Intent and will be part of the 2017-18 roster.

9 scholarship players on the roster for 2017-18; 6 for 2018-19.

May 1 - Duquesne University head men’s basketball coach Keith Dambrot announced that transfers Tavian Dunn-Martin (Akron), Michael Hughes (Akron), Craig Randall II (Memphis) and Marcus Weathers (Miami, Ohio) have signed a financial aid agreements and will be part of the men’s basketball program this fall...All four will sit out the 2017-18 season per NCAA transfer guidelines..."we made a conscious decision to go with nine scholarship players this year - with the other four spots going to transfers."

13 scholarship players for 2017-18 (9 eligible to play); 10 for 2018-19.

July 5 - First-year head men’s basketball coach Keith Dambrot announced that University of Missouri transfer guard Frankie Hughes (Cleveland, Ohio/Missouri) has signed a financial aid agreement and will be part of the Duquesne University program this fall. Hughes is the fifth four-year Division I transfer Dambrot has added to the roster, joining Tavian Dunn-Martin (Akron), Michael Hughes (Akron), Craig Randall II (Memphis) and Marcus Weathers (Miami, Ohio). All five will sit out the 2017-18 season per NCAA transfer guidelines.

This is where the numbers don't start to add up: We now have 14 players on the roster for 2017-18 (9 eligible to play); 11 for 2018-19.

Nick Washington (freshman) later appeared and has since disappeared from the official roster, and Chas Brown (grad student) is now listed on the roster.

Although none of the players have signed a letter of intent, we have received verbal commitment from:
Dylan Swingle (#12 for 2018-19)
Austin Rotroff (#13 for 2018-19)
Gavin Bizeau (#14 for 2018-19)
Brandon Wade (#15 for 2018-19)
Amari Kelly (#16 for 2018-19)

As CLK has stated many times, we don't know how all of this will play out. Players transfer out, players don't qualify academically, in one case (Kellon Taylor) we have a guy playing two sports, guys walk on, etc. But to think that this many kids want to come here and play for  Duquesne is pretty cool.

     Thread Starter
 

10/10/2017 5:31 pm  #22


Re: Amari Kelly signs

CLK, this indicates to me that the NLI, while not an athletic scholarship per se, does indicate that a player is bound to the school by athletic scholarship: 

The school, after an NLI is signed and processed, is required to provide an athletics scholarship for the athlete for a minimum of one year, provided the student meets the academic requirements to attend the school and the school is able to honor the scholarship 

And then there was this quote by Coach Dambrot in the May 1 press release on the filling-out of the roster with transfers: 


“We are looking to build our roster long term,” said Dambrot. “We want to win in the short term, but we have to make sure we only have to fix this one time, which is why we made a conscious decision to go with nine scholarship players this year - with the other four spots going to transfers. We feel we have four good players sitting, which will give us a major influx for that second year.”

So just going by what Duquesne has actually announced, I have to conclude that Kratholm is on athletic scholarship.

Last edited by DennisC91 (10/10/2017 5:32 pm)

 

10/10/2017 5:42 pm  #23


Re: Amari Kelly signs

Dennis this is the part that I was referring to that was unclear to me, and made it appear that a student could sign a NLI and still get an academic ride.

Grant-in-aid"This is the actual scholarship given by the university. While the particulars of the scholarship are highly regulated, the scholarship itself is particular to the school giving it. The main differences address differing tuition and costs of attendance between schools. The student after signing the GIA is in no way bound to the school. A student can sign as many GIA forms as they like. They are bound only to the particulars of the scholarship (academic requirements, etc.), and the scholarship is otherwise guaranteed.

 The school after receiving a signed GIA is obligated to provide the student with financial aid for one year, should they meet the agreed upon conditions of the scholarship.The GIA paperwork can be presented to the student athlete and signed at any time before, after, or independently of an NLI. There is no "signing day" for the scholarship paperwork. It's only tie to the NLI is that once an NLI is signed, the GIA paperwork is guaranteed to the student athlete

Last edited by CLK (10/10/2017 5:45 pm)

 

10/10/2017 5:58 pm  #24


Re: Amari Kelly signs

CLK, see the top video on the NLI website:

http://www.nationalletter.org/

An NLI must be accompanied by an athletics aid agreement. If you sign an NLI, you are on athletic scholarship. 
 

 

10/10/2017 6:20 pm  #25


Re: Amari Kelly signs

Thanks Dennis.  That seems pretty clear and definitive. Seems to contradict the statement above that:The GIA paperwork can be presented to the student athlete and signed at any time before, after, or independently of an NLI. We will have to see how this all shakes out.

 

Board footera

 

Powered by Boardhost. Create a Free Forum

LINKS


DUQUESNE SITES


  • Duquesne University Athletics
  • Official Men's Basketball Site
  • Duquesne Alumni homepage