Thank you for a well-written post...and I must say a kind one.  I consider myself a realist.  The coach was brought in to get us to an NIT/NCAA tournament.  If we do not reach that, then we are not successful.  If we reach that, we are successful.  There are no moral victories and this year we have two effective guards who are seniors, and a strong junior player.  This is the fourth year of what Ferry calls rebuilding a program.  I don't know what else to say except is that if we don't get to a tournament, then it is simple to say we are not successful.  If someone says we are successful without that then the program is even lower than it was a number of years ago.  The results of making a tournament or not will speak for themselves...because if we do have a winning program (hopefully), the NCAA/NIT will look at our strength of schedule and RPI and determine if we get chosen.  It IS that simple.

Last edited by FAM (2/22/2016 1:15 pm)

Great topic and finally getting to the point. I would also consider myself a realist even though at the time many of us where labeled as being totally negative. Forget the fact that much of what we warned or discussed has in fact happened.
Even though we had the two senior guards I didn't see this as the break out season leading to a real tourney (NCAA,NIT), but one of the secondary one's. IMHO the lack of a 3rd scorer was a issue and to my surprise J Jones was filling that role somewhat prior to his injury. But through it all the fact remains it was against lesser competition and that is why I was so adamant in calling out the lack of any real rotation from our bench and over use in particular of our guards.
While many got caught up in the moment and saw grandiose things on the horizon, many of us where reluctant to jump on the band wagon. As I have said many times I would have been very happy to be wrong. My bigger concern is that this years desire to win at all cost has left next year as a huge question mark with guys who should have gotten valuable playing time.
Finally FAM I agree there can only be one measuring stick and that is the one invoked by the man who hired Ferry to get to the post season.

Thanks CLK.
Next 4, Scoring Defense:

Bona..............#163
Richmond.......#243
Fordham.........#111
SJU................#091

What happens if Jim Ferry is canned? Do we lose all of our players and recruits and have to start over with the rebuilding process?
Or can we maintain our roster and just replace the head of the snake?
Also for all that are calling for Ferry's firing, what candidates would you rather see lead this program? 
 

Agreed CLK; the reason Burt is so successful for the ladies is that I believe his strength/reputation is that of a recruiter and he has recruited a quality roster.  Dan also brought in a lot of the players for Suzie and he tapped into the Euro market with his wife's connections - smart move.  By deduction he must also be a good "manager" as he knew enough to bring in quality assistants to help with the X and O's - or at least that is my assumption.  No matter what the ladies record speaks for itself and has for the last several years.  So my point is that I do believe the roster for the men has more talent and depth (top to bottom) then we've seen in at least the last 5 to 7 years, so what is the problem?  With the horrid defense and inability to close games out I think the majority would attribute this to coaching.  So if Ferry isn't going anywhere, another point I agree with, maybe a staff shake up is necessary.  My evaluation would be to get/keep the best recruiter or two on staff and then get the best "coaching" assistants you can find as we are certainly lacking in the latter category from Ferry on down.  Seems to me they carry 4 assistants so Ferry should be able to at least keep/get a good recruiter and a get a really good X's and O's guy - someone older, but with experience at the DI level.  Some former head coaches don't want the stress anymore or don't have the opportunity for a head coaching job given their age or other circumstances, but they love BBall and teaching it.  Is the AD listening?????      

CLK wrote:

Pete, this is going to strike a nerve with some folks, but I do not think the existing talent is that great on this team (seniors excluded).  There is some talent and some potential in the younger guys, but mostly average talent.  I do not say this to be critical, but to be honest.  I am not going to point out specific players but none are complete players. Look at the individual stats and you will see who struggles from the FT line, who is turnover prone, who can't hit a three point shot to save themselves, who are poor rebounders.  Some of this is correctable with better coaching (I think the Bonnies coach is terrific in this regard)but mostly they just are not at the same collective level as the upper teams in the League.  You can't have agerage talent, and below average coaching and development skills, and expect the team to somehow ascend to the top of the League. That is why I see one of the keys to Ferry winning (by that I mean getting to the top part of the League) is to recruit better players.

CLK - I don't disagree but don't you think the problem is convincing so called better players to come here in the first place?  And to do that you have to take what you have and make sure it achieves better than expected results.  I agree that's coaching but I don't know anyone that's going to come in here and recruit top players while at the same time being a top flight coach/teacher until a lot changes including overall commitment but also simply winning with the average talent you have.   This can't possibly be an attractive job and, in fact, has to be one of the worst jobs in the country - not because Duquesne is not a good place in a good location but because the overall commitment doesn't seem to be truly there except for those remaining fans like us who are committed (or perhaps should be for sticking with the program so long). 

I know that people will cite dollars spent, statements made by officials, changes at AJP, etc. as evidence of commitment.  I'm sorry but I still don't see it.  All that being said, I'm not calling on Coach Ferry to be fired.  But I do think all that means that it is one hell of a job that is by no means easy and does not present quick solutions.  I agree 4 years should bring some progress but when you look at it really there has been some - it's just not as much as we want.  Wish I had an answer rather than debating philosophy but this losing streak really is a lot to deal with.

I hear you CLK and a number of the players do have deficiencies, but still I would say there is workable talent to at least develop.  Not the top tier of the league talent, but better than in the past - 1 through 10 on the roster.  Of course they have to develop and get better..........Coaching.  I think Mulder and Econ's comments are both accurate and painfully poignant.  C'mon Dukes, win a couple more games so we have something positive to talk about!!!

CLK. Mulder and Pete.

I wouldn't usually tell personal knowledge but it is 20 years old, Scott and Elaine Edgar became friends of mine while at Duquesne, about half way through the first season I asked her why they came here. She told me there was a change in the administration at Murry State and even though Scott had 2 NCAA and 2 NIT teams plus an NBA kid ( Popeye Jones) he was kinda urged to look elsewhere. She said when Duquesne opened up many warned Scott that this was a grave yard for Coaches at Duquesne. He had success as asst at Tulane and Arkansas with Nolan Richardson, and mimicked his style of play. My opinion, the current players he got didn't match up well except a sophomore guard who had sat most of his freshman year due to Carrolls dislike for him. Mike James became his star, but recruiting issues, and getting his players to buy in or be able to adapt to his coaching style led to his demise. In fact he was a bad fit but who did BC fit in with?

Scott  Edgar never has reached the success of his early years and left damage, but did not cause DAP or Née. This really started when Gary Williams flew out Pittsburgh after that interview and never came back.

Mulder and CS, my point was that I believe that Ferry will be here for at least the next two years, and our best chance as a Program is for him to be successful.  Based on his performance to date I have serious doubts that he can coach, motivate, teach or develop players.  How can he look people in the eye and say we are better defensively while ranked in defensive statistic among the worst in the nation, and have been under his entire tenure.  While others may take the same talent and coach them to play defense or make better decisions or develop their skills, Ferry has given no indication that he can do so.  So my point was for him to win he needs to recruit better talent, along with getting someone on his staff who can teach defense and going to a more disciplined offense not the AAU crap we have seen.

BTW, Mulder I absolutely agree that more needs to be done by the University in its overall commitment. 

For any team, and most sports, it is a combination of talent and coaching.  I would say though you could be John Wooden and if you don't have the talent you are not going to go too far.  So at the end of the day the balance tips in favor of talent.  We've discussed this subject and it seems to me that most participants seem to be fairly in agreement about the talent level and the coaching - or lack thereof. With this post I want to focus on the talent issue as I was mulling this over last night and one thing I wondered about was the A-10 rookie of the week honors (I don't think they do it monthly).  I remember when Colter was a freshman he won it several times, although he played a ton due to the quality of the roster at that time.  Further, I think we can all agree that JF didn't get the benefit of a full recruiting period that first year.  So in theory one could argue that the subsequent recruiting years should yield better talent.  If the talent is better then the talent should play.  Well, in the next 3 classes after Colter's how many Rookie of the Week awards did we win????  When I look at our juniors, sophomores and current freshman I can't even recollect when we won a Rookie of the Week.  If we did it certainly was a rare occurrence, at least as far as I can remember.  So CLK's initial take on talent, despite his further explanation as it relates to coaching, may be pretty close to the truth.  If the recruited talent was better than year 1, why were Colter and JJ still starting in year 4!!!!!  And if the incoming talent was better and better wouldn't the player get more playing time and have the possibility of winning Rookie of the Week???  This is really meant to stimulate the discussion as there are arguments on all sides.  What do you guys think? 

Pete, I like to deal in data, and not just opinions.  Nice job.  That is why for me, we either make one of the tournaments or we don't.  If we don't, well then Duquesne Men's Basketball is definitely "Groundhog Day".  And for those of you who think my next comment is about Ron E. as a person, you are wrong.  As a coach, he got us to a couple of tournaments (NIT one year), was let go, and then the new guy says the program was soo bad and he hasn't gotten us anywhere.  So, that one coach back  then...I actually enjoyed the season. That is why when Ferry tells us how bad the program was I have an issue.  Yet I digress.  Pete, Your synopsis is well done.  We can't say how important rookie of the week is as far as the future but we can see that it is given to a player who performs extremely well.  Since no one can remember whether anyone on our team has gotten this more than twice this year (I don't even know if anyone even got it 2 times) then this data you provide is another example of the lack of success and the possible, and I say possible probability that next year will be even worse...and again I think, do I even want to buy my tickets for next year.  Groundhog day????????????

Last edited by FAM (2/24/2016 10:57 am)

It all starts with coaching. Someone mentioned John Wooden.  Wooden started in his early 20's at HS level coaching Dayton HS, which was 5 and 11 his first year then 11 - 5 his second and never had a losing season again covering HS, college (NAIA first then Div.1)  That is 39 win seasons in 40 years.  Closer to home, how about John Calipari from Clarion to Pitt asst to Umass to natl champion - he started from nothing.  Or, how about the Millers: Sean at X then Archie from asst to Dayton and Elite 8 in 2nd or 3rd season.  Or, how about Mike Rice at RMU, who along with Andy Toole had our number for 5 straight years and conference champs.  Getting better players sounds good until you run up against the likes of BCS coaches and just about every other A10 coach in your recruiting endeavors.