PistolPete wrote:

I thought the piece in the PG today comparing ST. B and the Dukes was very good.  They have a much smaller school and we put $1mm more into basketball, but Schmidt has certainly established a winning program.  In year 5 they went to the NCAA and have won 18 plus games in 4 years since then.  MS also stressed the importance of the culture and the school commitment and that is relevant as well, but one thing I didn't like was the quote from Ferry.  Here is the particular excerpt:
"As the two men and their teams prepare to match up tonight in Olean, N.Y., St. Bonaventure’s success the past three seasons could be a source of hope for Duquesne. After all, if a coach can excel with the Bonnies (18-7, 10-4), traditionally one of the conference’s tougher gigs, why can’t the same hold true for the Dukes (15-12, 5-9)?

“It not only gives us hope, but it has been our plan here,” Ferry said. “It’s coming together. There’s been a bump in the road because of an injury to one of our best players, but we’re on our way.”

So basically it sounds to me that Ferry is attributing the "bump", which I think is the losing streak, to losing Jeremiah Jones.  This comment just rubs me the wrong way.  I remember when JJ played and we barely beat the worst Bobby Mo team in years and same goes as to St. Francis.  No question that JJ improved and was a good leader, but he was far from a dominant player (EC Matthews for example).  I am just tired of the excuses.  I don't care if JJ was here or not, you don't blow that game at Dayton and you don't blow the second half leads in the other games.  If Ferry doesn't have the ability to Coach someone up to step in or the talent is that lacking, especially when you compare the talent to JJ, then that is on this staff.  No more excuses!!!!
 

I see it a little differently. I agree form the point that I don't think you can blame every loss on JJ not being here. I also agree that he was never a dominant game-changing player throughout his career, there were points in his career I posted on this board about wondering why he got so much time with his limited production stat wise. I wasn't really a fan of him. However, I also remember this year before the injury how well he was playing, and that people on this board were noting the improvement and how it looked like he may have taken that next metaphorical step in terms of development and impact. The shot looked better, he looked much more confident with the ball and the passing was light years ahead of the last couple seasons. He was also one of our shut-down defenders. I attend almost every home game and can say I saw first-hand the impact he was having on games and he looked like a different player.

I am also not backing or defending Ferry but logically, you'd have to think we could have snuck out a couple of the close games with his contributions. He helped run the offense smoother, could hit shots when he got looks, and was a defensive asset on the perimeter. Think about all those games where James disappeared. Not knocking him because inconsistency is a common theme with young guys but JJ could have provided a much more consistent, level output because of his experience in A10 games. You would then have James with a more specific role off the bench, which I think would have been perfect for him this year (lots of time to gain experience without the pressure of going from barely playing to starting every night). We would also have more depth which would help with defensive efforts at the end of these close games. You're kidding yourself if you think it wasn't a huge obstacle losing a guy who played a ton of A10 games in his career and looked to be on the verge of playing a much bigger part on this team.

I think if someone besides Ferry would have said that, more people would agree with the statement. It just makes sense from a lot of angles. If we could have pulled out just two wins in all the situations were we blew leads our just lost by a couple points we could be sitting at 17-10, with an 18-20 win season highly likely, and I'm sure no one would be complaining.
 

To further he validity of my point.

Schmidt's Bonnie's wins until 5th year NCAA appearance:
2007: 8
2008: 15
2009: 15
2010: 16

Pretty similar trajectory eh?

102, you make valid points and your analysis is solid, but with or without JJ you still need to win a couple of the games during this losing streak and that is what I think really gripes most people.  You are not going to pull them all out or hold onto all second half leads, really good teams do that, but I think you have to do it at least half the time.  There has to be enough talent on the roster in year 4 and/or management by the Coaches to not let at least 2 of those games to slip away.  That is basically where I am coming from.

PistolPete wrote:

102, you make valid points and your analysis is solid, but with or without JJ you still need to win a couple of the games during this losing streak and that is what I think really gripes most people.  You are not going to pull them all out or hold onto all second half leads, really good teams do that, but I think you have to do it at least half the time.  There has to be enough talent on the roster in year 4 and/or management by the Coaches to not let at least 2 of those games to slip away.  That is basically where I am coming from.

I agree it pisses me off too to think of where we are and where we could be this year. I just look at it more as this team is finally putting itself in a position to be in almost every game we play no matter who the opponent (see Dayton, away), but I understand it is also taking the next step to be able to win at least half of said games. I agree we aren't there yet, but it's also good to see were usually at least having something to say at the end of most games, something I can't say was the case last year. I wouldn't chalk every close loss up to coaching, and I wouldn't blame every one on the players either. I think this team collectively is finding itself in the position of being on the verge of being a top 6 team in this conference if it can do the things it's capable of. I believe getting to that next step has a learning curve that both the players and coaches are now experiencing and can learn from. Sometimes you have to take your lumps and sh*tty losses to get to where you want to be. I see us right in the middle of this transition point. As far as Robinson, who knows he definitely flashes in games. Fitness? Work ethic and attitude seem to be where it needs to be.

The Dome wrote:

Would it be preferable to have another senior on the floor? It would be fool hardy to say no. My problem is this, would that change considerably the poor decisions made by our point guard at key points, was JJ enough of a scorer to be that third option? Would it affectively change the AAU fire when ready offense, thanks CLK for that very good analogy?

There are far more flaws that have been exposed by this losing streak than a simple, Well if we had JJ response. Besides he would be another player who would be logging 35/40 minutes. Where would his legs be especially as 102, I think, pointed out he was a shutdown defender.

It is inexcusable that IMHO legitimate players are unable to contribute or be trusted 20/25 games into a season. I will repeat it a 1,000 times what the hell is being done at practice every day?

You missed the entire point. It wasn't a simple solution that if JJ didn't get hurt we would have won every close game we played in, but rather his impact and influence on the team was probably worth at least two of those games going our way. I also do believe him being in the lineup would settle down some of the crazy shot taking, which in my opinion, Colter is pretty much the only culprit of. Mason being one of the greatest pure strokers to ever put a college uni on, I'll take anything he wants to put up. Colter is really the only who sometimes loses us games by taking shots too quick in the possesion, taking way too many shots when he isn't on, or just trying to do too much and drawing a charge or turning the ball over. Don't you get that with another trusted option of a guy who could handle and shoot out there besides Mason and Colter the offense would be much less predictable down the stretch? That has to count for something. I also think it's worth pointing out that DC wasn't playing the reckless way he is now when JJ was still playing. He didn't feel like he had to do everything on his own. His shooting % was much higher and he took much better shots before JJ went down. So yeah, think it had an impact.

Mulder wrote:

Very interesting conversation but I would like to add when I read the article I didn't take the comment about JJ as an excuse especially the way it was phrased.  Kind of surprised that so many did in fact.

Right there with you. It's an obvious fact that it hurt the team when he went down, and in a significant way.I think people are so frustrated with a season that looked like it could have been major leap forward only becoming another marginal step in a positive direction, that anything that comes out of his mouth is an excuse. If some other, bigger team we had no connection to somewhere on the other side of America had a situation where a senior guard who played his entire career had a season ending injury, the coach saying it was a huge hurdle to over come his loss would not be viewed as an excuse. It's a very clear, obvious, statement of fact. If people honestly think we wouldn't have been able to eek out at least two more wins having JJ all year, you probably didn't watch this team at the beginning of the year when he was still playing. And for anyone who wants to say that the Penn State win was just another win against a crap team from a BCS conference, they beat #4 Iowa last week. BTW, Jeremiah Jones played in that game. 33 minutes 11 points 4 rebs 2 assists. That's about what we could have expected from him in A10 play consistently. And with my point about him helping colters offensive game he had 26 points with 4 assists to 1 TO. 

Your right, The Dome. It says nothing about our team that a team we beat also beat the #4 team in the country in the same season. How silly of me to bring that up. Not like the NCAA selection committe uses that criteria every single year to make tourney picks or anything.

Last edited by Duques102 (2/24/2016 4:55 pm)

The Dome wrote:

So we are 20 points better than Iowa. That's real thoughtful.

Maybe read my comment above instead of putting words in my mouth. If it's good enough for the selection committee to consider those things it's good enough for me. Sorry that doesn't jive with you.

The Dome wrote:

We are a good team. We are a good team.  Keep repeating that to yourself and maybe it will come true.

Again thanks for speaking for me the dome. I didn't say we are a good team at this point. You excel at ignoring valid points like the one I just made about the selection committee and instead putting words in my mouth. Will you at any point address things I'm actually saying? Selection committee using criteria you shoot down? Statistical data showing modest improvement you fail to recognize? Have you transcended logic? There is quite a difference between good and better. Your childish, unfounded responses towards my factual postsare especially sad as I can guarantee you are much, much older than me.

Last edited by Duques102 (2/24/2016 5:47 pm)

Let me introduce to their concept of a good/bad win and good/bad loss. The perception of a win or loss is determined by the performance of a team that is beat or lost too. Example: the win against penn state looks stronger when they beat a team like Iowa. The loss to Pepperdine doesn't look as bad if they beat a team like Gonzaga. Extremely common and well known concept the committee uses on a yearly basis. Your welcome

Gee, I never heard the coaches of the Steelers, or Patriots, or Duke, or NC, and I can go on talk about a good loss.  The words good loss come from coaches and fans who settle, who accept losing, etc.  Now, we all lose, and we can lose, and losing is a part of life.  So accepting a loss is a must...saying the loss is good is not.   Dome, don't even waste your ink.  Some folks are so used to losing they believe it is their duty to spin a loss as okay.  We aren't going to change them and thank heaven, they aren't going to change us.  Sadly, what isn't going to change also is the men's basketball program with this coach.  Duques102, please know that you are entitled to your opinion and that's what makes the world and this board go round!  But, (and my comments are NEVER personal attacks) I believe your synopsis of good or bad losses can not apply to Duquesne.  I might go out on a limb and talk about winning teams who are getting cocky, or who aren't listening to their coach...all connected with long-time winning.  Now and then, a valid point (in my opinion) can be voiced that this loss will get them back on their feet and in realilty with what they need to do.  However, the men's team is a losing program.  It has been since this coach got here.  So, there is NOT a good loss with this program.  It also reminds me of when J. Durham said on the radio last year that Ferry says you have to learn how to lose before you can learn how to win.  That is the most illogical - bull-s--- statement Ferry has every made.  Whew!!

Last edited by FAM (2/25/2016 9:15 am)

We had winning with Red Manning, hope with Mike Rice, mediocrity with Jim Satalin, modest success with John Carroll, mediocrity with Scott Edgar (despite having an NBA player and 4 of the top twenty scorers in DU history at the time on the same roster for one year), horribleness with Darrell Porter, absolute horribleness with Danny Nee, modest success then dashed hope with Ron Everheart, so far mediocrity with Jim Ferry. That about sums it up for me....