Thank you Duq81, right on point!!!

duq81 wrote:

MrBrightside wrote:

Thank you Duq81, right on point!!!

I know people here look at things with their heart, but sometimes common sense has to step in. The C7 will no longer be playing UConn, Syracuse, Louisville, ND, and Pitt. That is going to hurt them badly. They need quality teams, if they want to maintain the perception that they are a big time league, and not just another mid major. They are already pissed that they are pretty much forced to carry two leeches in Depaul, and Seton Hall. They need programs that can help them now, not another mouth to feed. Xavier, Butler, and Creighton lend immediate credibility to their league. Duquesne would lend zero credibility to their league.  Hell, they're not exactly sold on SLU, which is a more attractive program than we are.

 Sad but true, DU needs to win first, DU Admin. has to step up and put up for a long time to get the years of consistancy it takes to get to that level. It's more than finding a coach.  It's finding a way to commit long term as a University to that level.  Only then do we earn the right to get that kind of invite.

ElDuque wrote:

MrBrightside wrote:

Thank you Duq81, right on point!!!

So ... there are talking points now. Ugh.

Gives me so much confidence in the regime. What it can't accomplish in terms of results, it will make up for with talking points.

No talking points, but criticizing the BE for not taking Duquesne is silly. These schools are looking out for their own self interests, as they should be. There are serious concerns for the C7. While joining them would be a step up for any A 10 team, the teams in the C7 are taking a step down. While they have taken the best step possible for their programs, their position as a power conference is by no means assured, and in fact, is very precarious. The schools in the football playing conferences are going to work hard to label the BE schools as "mid majors", in order to eliminate them as serious recruiting competition. ESPN is not going to sit quietly while Fox tries to encroach on their position as the dominant force in sports broadcasting. ESPN is going to counter schedule the games that the BE will have on Fox, and with ESPN having Big 10, ACC, and America 12 games at their disposal, it's going to be very difficult for the BE to get the kinds of ratings they need to maintain their position. ESPN is going to be able to broadcast the following matchups:

Duke vs Carolina, Syracuse, ND, Pitt, Louisville
Carolina vs Syracuse, ND, Louisville, Pitt
Louisville vs Syracuse, ND, Pitt
Syracuse vs ND, Pitt
ND vs Pitt
Indiana vs MSU, OSU, Ill, UM
MSU vs UM, OSU, Ill
UM vs OSU, Ill
OSU vs Ill
UConn vs Memphis, UC, Temple
Memphis vs UC, Temple
UC vs Temple

Some of these games will be played twice in a year. These are the games that ESPN will be showing opposite whatever BE games are on Fox. The BE can't come close to matching that level of competition, and they're supposed to leave Butler on the table? Fox would have a fit. Every single one of those teams I listed is in the NCAA Tournament this year except UConn, who was ineleigible.  Long term, I don't think they have a prayer of remaining a major conference. I don't know what Georgetown, and St. John's are going to do when they're playing in front of 5,000 fans in those NBA arenas, Considering that Alumni Hall is a Palumbo level bulilding, and Georgetown's facilitly is worse than Rose Hill, mid majordom is definitely in their future.

Last edited by duq81 (3/25/2013 8:23 pm)

Ironduke81 wrote:

duq81 wrote:

Ironduke81 wrote:

AD openly targets Shaka Smart or Brad Stevens...My point is if these two accept an offer Butler or VCU could be toast. It amazes me that the Catholic 7 would pick Butler non catholic with an inferior tv market & high school gym vs. the Consol & Pittsburgh.

Butler has been good for a while. They were good under Barry Collier, and Thad Matta, but you're right. Why would the C7 pick a school that has made 2 trips to the NCAA Championship Game this decade, when they could have a school that hasn't put a nationally relevant team on the floor since 1972.

Duq 81 I can't disagree about the futility since the 70s but not one to simply accept such an excuse. Much to easy to play the blame game. You know if this latest round fails Dr. D will be thrown in with his predecessors. That would be a shame! I firmly believe Duquesne holds a lot of positives to miss this opportunity to receive a bid down the road. Oh by the way Tubby Smith fired wow NCAA bid while competing in the big 10.

Perhaps if the BE stays at 10 teams, we might have a chance to play our way into the discussion, but right now, they need the strongest teams they can get, and Butler is it.

ElDuque wrote:

duq81, I have not ever said that the Big East should have taken Duquesne. What I had said months ago already was that the A-10 should have cherry-picked a couple of the Big East teams that would have been good fits with our conference. I applaud the commissioner and presidents of the "breakaway" schools because they took bold action to improve themselves. But take a good look at the nucleus of the new conference: Georgetown, Villanova and Marquette have been regular visitors to the NCAA tournament over an extended period of time. St. John's is improving under Lavin and made the NIT this year. They have an amazing base from which to recruit and Lavin will do things that some of his predecessors wouldn't. Not calling him a cheater; just saying some corners will be turned pretty tightly. So you have four very good teams. Providence, DePaul and Seton Hall, if you compare their records to the Everhart years, would not provide a compelling case for them being in the new conference. Xavier, Butler and Creighton will clearly immediately push the Friars, Demons and Pirates to the bottom. Of course, Duquesne had a miserable season last year, but it managed to give Georgetown a game on its home court - how many teams mentioned above were able to do this? And while Chicago is a must-have market, South Orange NJ and Providence RI are not. If you think Duquesne is a distant third in Pittsburgh right now, Seton Hall is a nearly forgotten second behind Rutgers in NJ. Difference between them and us is that they're still a Big East team and there is no one in the Garden State (St. Peter's, Princeton, Monmouth, Rider, NJIT) pushing them. They have no campus facility and play home games at the new arena in Newark. Providence might as well be on an island in the Atlantic Ocean. I think URI is ahead of them anyway.

Having said all of this, I certainly don't believe Duquesne has done anything to help itself. Amodio's comments to the press, while true, are an idictment of his failures. He cut programs, sank money into facilities, increased budgets, and did other things that should have contributed to our basketball programs being in a better place, but they're not. He has also someone managed to lose a small student fan base, alienate a good portion of the base (which yes is old and stale), and frankly look like a lightweight the whole time.

Our women's basketball team has won 20+ games a year for several years and ended up in the NIT. West Virginia - who the Dukes beat every year - went to the NCAAs with far fewer wins.

How does that even happen?

The rest of our athletic program is riddled with mediocrity. When Amodio got here, the football and lacrosse programs were flying high. No more.

Soccer? Smimming? Cross-country? Tennis? We field teams.

It's easy to point fingers at all of the past failures, blame Father Hogan, Ron Everhart, Eileen Livingston, Chick Davies -- whoever you want to blame. And to keep giving a pass to someone who plain and simple is not getting results.

Folks can do all that. And they can have their talking points (that wasn't a shot at you, it was in response to Steve and Mr. Brightside ALL IS WELL! ALL IS WELL!).

I really believe that mediocrity is the accepted norm. I think the A-10 will be watered down (no disrespect to George Mason, but they're not Xavier), and it will either break up or turn into a MAAC or NEC level conference.

Our football team will wallow around. Our women's basketball team will be a perennial one-win in the NIT team. And our men's basketball team, which right now is FIVE YEARS behind Robert Morris, will never see either the NIT or NCAA tournament again.

But please ... stick to the talking points everyone. All is well.

First, I never claimed you said the BE should have taken us. IronDuke was the one who wondered why the BE would take Butler instead of us. Second, the C7 was forced to keep DePaul, and the other dregs, lest they lose the auto bid. If we are mad about being stuck in the A10, why on earth would teams already in the BE want to join us? That was never going to happen. Even if they were interested, they would have asked the A10 to kick us, Bona, and Fordham out. The A10 is not going to break up, that's Chicken Little talk. There is nowhere better for out teams to go, and there are still plenty of teams who would kill to join. As for Football, who cares. I wish we weren't wasting money on it. With regard to the women's team not getting in over WVU, only 2 non BCS schools got at large bids. The system is biased against us, and other than winning the league, or going 28-2, there is not much we can do about that. Oh, by the way, we'll be back in the postseason in two years, or we'll have a new AD.

I really believe that mediocrity is the accepted norm. I think the A-10 will be watered down (no disrespect to George Mason, but they're not Xavier), and it will either break up or turn into a MAAC or NEC level conference.

ED - With regard to your statement above, specifically that medocrity is the accepted norm at Duquesne, at least as it relates to men's BB, I think there is some evidence to suggest that it may be true. Namely, I refer to what appears to be the party line coming out of the Athletic Dept. concerning our exclusion from the BE. The party line is that it is better to be an Xavier in the A-10 ( when X was still a member) than a Providence in the BE - the point being that Duquesne is better off as a team in the A-10 with one of the higher men's BB budgets than a team with one of the lowest budgets in the BE. While the logic of this party line is inescapable, it also appears that Duquesne does not have aspirations above the level of the A-10 or what it certainly could become - as you say, the MAAC or NEC. If this is true, then your statement that, "mediocrity is the accepted norm", is also true in my opinion. Even if it were possible for DU to get into the BE, it suggests that they would never be willing to make the investment it would take to be competitive in the BE. This of course is no surprise since it has been slow to make the investment it takes to be competitive in the A-10.







 

I don't think there are any talking points.    I do think Duquesne is trying to improve upon what RE started and could not take to the next level.   The straw that broke the camel's back was TJ leaving and I have it on good authority that one of the many reasons he left was because RE would not disicpline players (ie Eric Evans, Talley).   This confirms what I witnessed as a season ticket holder as there was no chemistry between TJ, Evans and Talley.  Often times TJ was frustrated (and let it show which showed some immaturity i did not like) when Evans or Talley played selfish.   As we know from watching TJ he was anything but selfish on the court.    There was no control of that team and for that RE paid the price.   A change had to be made.

While I'm not sold on JF just yet we have to give credit to GA for grabbing him last year.    There is no doubt in my mind if JF stayed at LIU this year and coached that team to back to back to back NCAA's he would have had higher level offers than Duquesne.    We have to give JF the benifit of the doubt until he gets this roster filled with his players.   I think a good goal for next year is to reach or exceed the 500 mark.    

 

ElDuque wrote:

duq81, I was only trying to separate myself from the train of thought that you were disputing. Did not mean to put words in your mouth.

G-Duke, I think the bar has to be set higher than .500 next year. 15-16 wins, seven in the A-10, has to be a minimum. That would reflect a couple things to me: Ferry's getting the right players in here, and he's on the right path as far as how he's coaching these guys. Look at what Pat Skerry has done at Towson. He took, I think, a three win program and put it well over .500 in a year. The A-10, by virtue of losing Xavier, Temple, and Butler, will be watered down. I'm not saying the team is a failure if it lands at .500 and wins six conference games, I'm saying I won't feel as comfortable that we're on the right path.

Sometimes how it unfolds is important too. 15-15 can leave you feeling down, or very optimistic depending on how they got there. If the team is 12-6 at some point, and ends up at .500, there would be a lot of pessimism on this board. Conversely, if we were 6-10, and ended up at .500, with a win over one of the league powers coming down the stretch, the board would be chomping at the bit for the next season to get here.

Ironduke81 wrote:

Big east has signed with Fox question will every league game be televised like the old Big East? Big money upfront for a basketball league. As for the A-10 is there a similar tv contract in the future with Fox, Espn, NBC or CBS sports? Every league game televised with nice upfront contract? Or until technology continues to explode I.e. AppleTV Microsoft  Does the playing field for exposure eventually even things out. I somehow expect Internet broadcast for the next 10 years. Is there a cable channel out there that needs filler during college basketball season. Food channel Opera TV food network.Not feeling good about the future especially with talks of further raids pending with the A-10. 

That Fox contract is paying the BE a lot of money, but long term, it could bite them in the butt, as now they will no longer be on ESPN. Fox doesn't have nearly the coverage of ESPN, and ESPN has a lot of high profile games that they could put up against the BE. What are you gonna watch, Nova/Seton Hall, or Indiana/Illinois? Georgetown/Butler, or Duke/Carolina? ESPN will be able to put attractive matchups up against BE filler like PC vs Creighton. Mid majordom, here comes the BE!

ElDuque wrote:

Ah, but duq81, the Atlantic 10 may be facing a worse fate. Like play-in gamedom for our league champion. The schools that have carried the torch have departed.

UMass carried the torch higher than any departing schools has. No reason why they can't become a force again. You were the biggest Hurley booster on this board before he got to URI. Have you lost faith that he can get the job done there? VCU isn't likely to be going anywhere, and they were good before Shaka got there. LaSalle has most of their team back, and should be an NCAA team again next year. GW has a good coach, and lots of young talent. They could be quite good soon. This league was far weaker in the early to mid 80's, and we were never in danger of being relegated to the play in game. You need to take a close look at the 20+ leagues who are behind us. At worst, this league will be on a par with the MVC, and CUSA. That's hardly play in game material.

ElDuque wrote:

UMass cheated. They are moving towards D1 football and along with Dayton and St. Louis may be short-timers here. URI will have some growing pains, as will GWU. I'm confident LaSalle will get better and that St. Joe's & Richmond will remain strong programs. VCU will become very attractive to other conferences. It's the programs coming in that make me feel as though we're stepping back. Maybe I'm overly pessimistic, but it's because I don't have confidence in our administration or the A-10.

There is basically nowhere for UMass and VCU to go. Unless VCU gets the BE invite, they are stuck here. The A12 just chose Tulsa, effectively shutting UMass out. They are pretty much stuck in their current position. The fact that GMU jumped without hesitation shows you that the A10, even in a weakened state, is still the most attractive option out there for schools who can't get into the new BE. We will still be a 2-3 bid a year league going forward. I don't see where we can complain, seeing as how we have contributed zero to the league. A strong Duquesne would go a long way toward fixing any problems the A10 has.

By the way, Bernie McGlade has done a great job since she took over. The contrast between her work, and that of Linda Bruno is startling.

Ironduke81 wrote:

Shaka Smart to stay @ VCU good for A-10 not good for the Dukes. Brad Stevens to UCLA that would be hilarious good luck Butler replacing your coach.

They didn't have too much trouble replacing Collier, Matta, and Lickliter while members of the Horizon League. I doubt they will have much trouble attracting a good young coach to one of the best teams in the Big East. Of course there is always some risk when you change coaches, but they will have a very nice list of coaches to choose from if it comes to that.