So, bottom line for me:
1. I bleeping hate losing.
2. We hung with Davidson on their court. No one does that.
3. There were a couple calls that could have gone either way that we didn't get. 
4. Shot selection has to be better in close games. TDM came off the bench and launched a three from Atlanta. Someone else (Frankie Hughes?) also put up a bad, long shot. But both bring a great spark to the offense.
5. Carry played great but made some freshman mistakes. When he's a senior, he might be the best player in this conference.
6. Rotroff and Kelly will both get better. I still think Swingle will be a beast and Ellis will be the best big man since Alston (Damien Saunders played as a big man but didn't have the length).
7. I bleeping hate losing. Did I mention that?

The Dukes played a great game, but I agree with ghost in the last 5 minutes we looked tired on offense.  I looked at the minutes and Williams, F Huges, and Carry all played 34 minutes, M Hughes played 28,  and each of which point production went down in the second half.  I also don't understand why we didn't see more Norman.  The kid brings energy and offense.  We also need either Rotroff or Kelly to develop to play more PF.   Still we had our chances. Go Dukes.  

Just to clarfy on the PF slot, I thought Weathers had a pretty good game.  Taylor gave us 0 rebounds, 2 points and 4 fouls in 18 minutes. Maybe it was a match up issue, but still not good for future development.

Last edited by CLK (1/06/2019 9:59 am)

CLK, Box & One and Ghost I am with you guys.  The offense was very stagnant the last 6 minutes or so.  KD we got tired, then where is NORMAN!  Fresh legs with some O to his game, he should have gotten more minutes.  Someone at the game said KD was yelling at LN for two bad defensive possessions and then he basically didn't play him.  I am sure he was sending a message, but what about his pet KTaylor.  I'm sorry, if you are building a "program" and for the future to develop your young guys how does that jive with playing a walk-on football player ahead of younger guys on scholarship.  This isn't Bo Jackson we are talking about here.  KD clearly has an affection for Taylor, but he was toasted a couple of times defensively, one of which on replay they showed the guy go right around him and MH had to foul at the rim, but Taylor still plays.  This isn't last year Coach where you had to play him and when you are struggling offensively Norman needed to play more - even if you played smaller.  Taylor gives you zip offensively. 

FAM wrote:

Wharf... I know they are young... but I can still be tired of the Dukes losing over these so many years...

No offense FAM.  I only got back on board with Everhart, so I get the long suffering you all endured.  Legitimate criticism in this thread (poor shot selection down the stretch, etc.), but I am encouraged for reasons stated by others. I think Pitt and Dukes were about 9 point u.dogs, and I wasn't ruling out the possibility of getting crushed like Pitt did.

I dont think anyone is giving up, its just how long do we have to endure close losses in games that might turn the program in the right direction?  When can we win one of these?  I think we know the coach is trying and players, and that sooner or later the bounces will go our way, but damn its getting old.  Davidson isnt that good.  We could have beaten them, maybe cause one of their better players was just back from injury.  Regardless, shoulda/coulda/woulda.  Lets win these next 2 at home and start getting positive vibes again.

CityDuke wrote:

PistolPete wrote:

CLK, Box & One and Ghost I am with you guys.  The offense was very stagnant the last 6 minutes or so.  KD we got tired, then where is NORMAN!  Fresh legs with some O to his game, he should have gotten more minutes.  Someone at the game said KD was yelling at LN for two bad defensive possessions and then he basically didn't play him.  I am sure he was sending a message, but what about his pet KTaylor.  I'm sorry, if you are building a "program" and for the future to develop your young guys how does that jive with playing a walk-on football player ahead of younger guys on scholarship.  This isn't Bo Jackson we are talking about here.  KD clearly has an affection for Taylor, but he was toasted a couple of times defensively, one of which on replay they showed the guy go right around him and MH had to foul at the rim, but Taylor still plays.  This isn't last year Coach where you had to play him and when you are struggling offensively Norman needed to play more - even if you played smaller.  Taylor gives you zip offensively. 

Personally, I disagree with your comments on Taylor. I think Taylor provided some very good minutes yesterday. And moving forward, I want more Taylor. I think he will be very important to this team. He is experienced in the A10, he is a strong leader, he is very tough, and he rebounds. I think with all the talent we have on this team, Taylor could provide the gritty, tough Draymond Green type role for this team. Also, while he may not be as polished offensively as you would like, I do not think Weathers’ offensive game necessarily blows his out of the water. I have no problem with those two splitting time and pushing each other for minutes.

[b][b]Power Forward is the position of greatest need & confusion for the Dukes. Taylor is all energy, grit, experience, & brains but is not tall/long enough or have the requisite scoring punch to play successful, big minutes at this level. Weathers has some experience, good length, & athleticism but lacks the finishing ability, FT shooting, & basketball I.Q. as a sophomore to be starting in the A-10. To complicate things, neither Rotroff nor Kelly is agile enough to play the position next to Mike Hughes in KD's preferred pressure defense. In the longer term, there is nobody either sitting out or coming in to change this for next season. This puts the coach in the strange spot of having 4 quality players without the specific qualities to carry the load at the 4.

I like Weathers's upside but as more of an ass kicking, energizer bunny off the bench. It seems unlikely that he will develop enough to be one of the the top 10 PFs in the league. The more likely scenario is that the man to man scheme is tweaked a bit to get very good results from the stengths offered by the Rotroff & Kelly combo.[/b][/b]

Last edited by phil95 (1/06/2019 5:20 pm)

I'll say it again: Weathers is taking undue heat on this board. 22 minutes, 4-8 from  the floor, 3-4 from the line, and 6 rebounds. The Dukes did not lose the game because of Weathers' play. His play will probably improve, but he is not a weakness in my opinion.

Dsnyder15 posted this link to the MIAMI REDHAWKS men's basketball statistics page from Weather's time on the team in 2017

https://miamiredhawks.com/documents/2017/3/6/_mioh_m_baskbl_2016_17_stats__season_stats.pdf

Am I crazy (well, yeah) but does it read that Weather's F-throw % was .777% (160 of 206)? This isn't Wilt Chamberlin type free throw numbers. Weathers is capable of being a decent free throw shooter once he gets back into that muscle memory state. As applecorps in his post pointed out Weathers was 3 of 4 from the line against Davidson. Isn't that .75% (close to that Miami .777%?) Perhaps Saturday's game is the beginning of his break thru at the free throw line. It was unfortunate his miss was so untimely in that game. 
For the record, I am hugely disappointed so far in his overall play. Like many I expected him to be more of a force around the basket, but my opinion is beginning to soften. Posts by applecorps, Dsnyder15 and others have caused me to go back for a closer second look at the game replays, and Weathers other intangibles were not bad. Scoring is not the only criteria. As he matures, I now believe he will become a factor for this team. So, come on apluski, give him some room
Off this subject, when the Dukes' shooting went cold against Davidson, Norman should have been in there in a heartbeat--the guy brings it. My opinion is that the Dukes played a damn fine game Saturday. No quit in this team.

I think it is Curry.
Dukes played well--hung around 
Couldn't make enough plays at the end
Next up is Fordham at home-a winable game

apluski wrote:

Dsnyder15 posted this link to the MIAMI REDHAWKS men's basketball statistics page from Weather's time on the team in 2017

https://miamiredhawks.com/documents/2017/3/6/_mioh_m_baskbl_2016_17_stats__season_stats.pdf

Am I crazy (well, yeah) but does it read that Weather's F-throw % was .777% (160 of 206)? This isn't Wilt Chamberlin type free throw numbers. Weathers is capable of being a decent free throw shooter once he gets back into that muscle memory state. As applecorps in his post pointed out Weathers was 3 of 4 from the line against Davidson. Isn't that .75% (close to that Miami .777%?) Perhaps Saturday's game is the beginning of his break thru at the free throw line. It was unfortunate his miss was so untimely in that game.
For the record, I am hugely disappointed so far in his overall play. Like many I expected him to be more of a force around the basket, but my opinion is beginning to soften. Posts by applecorps, Dsnyder15 and others have caused me to go back for a closer second look at the game replays, and Weathers other intangibles were not bad. Scoring is not the only criteria. As he matures, I now believe he will become a factor for this team. So, come on apluski, give him some room
Off this subject, when the Dukes' shooting went cold against Davidson, Norman should have been in there in a heartbeat--the guy brings it. My opinion is that the Dukes played a damn fine game Saturday. No quit in this team.

You are looking at the stats for his twin brother Micheal.  Micheal was the more sought after recruit.  They choose Miami so they could play together...and they knew the coach.  Marcus was 6-3, 195lb SG in HS.  He played PF and C for Miami...they were very small.  He is now 6-5 and 225 and I think he is still growing.  He was the best rebounder on the team at Miami and out played the MAC MVP Isiah (Big Dog) Johnson who was 6-10 300lbs.   I think Marcus learned to play a secondary role and without the ball because his brother was a dominant scorer who dominated the ball (PG who went to OK State after Cooper was fired at Miami).  Here are Marcus's #s at Miami (keep in mind he was always playing against bigger and stronger kids...he probably gave up 25-50lbs a game):
PPG                  9.7
FG %                 .513
3pt%                  .350
FPG%                .680
RPG:                 6.0
ORPG                2.23
Assists to T/O      .54
 

Last edited by Dsnyder15 (1/07/2019 5:42 pm)

As someone mentioned, if Ells qualifies, and is as good as advertised, M. Hughes may move to be our 
PF with Ellis the shot blocker in the middle (or vice versa).  We will have an ample supply of bigs which is why I would like to see more of Rotroff or Kelly at PF.  We have seen that Rotroff is capable of hitting the three.  Also who knows, Bizeau could suddenly regain his confidence and be the PF.  Bottom line is I would like all of these kids to stick with this team and continue to develop.  But we know that at least one more player will have to transfer. 

Ellis video:    https://www.hudl.com/profile/8949716/James-Ellis

Duques102 wrote:

Dsnyder15 wrote:

apluski wrote:

Dsnyder15 posted this link to the MIAMI REDHAWKS men's basketball statistics page from Weather's time on the team in 2017

https://miamiredhawks.com/documents/2017/3/6/_mioh_m_baskbl_2016_17_stats__season_stats.pdf

Am I crazy (well, yeah) but does it read that Weather's F-throw % was .777% (160 of 206)? This isn't Wilt Chamberlin type free throw numbers. Weathers is capable of being a decent free throw shooter once he gets back into that muscle memory state. As applecorps in his post pointed out Weathers was 3 of 4 from the line against Davidson. Isn't that .75% (close to that Miami .777%?) Perhaps Saturday's game is the beginning of his break thru at the free throw line. It was unfortunate his miss was so untimely in that game.
For the record, I am hugely disappointed so far in his overall play. Like many I expected him to be more of a force around the basket, but my opinion is beginning to soften. Posts by applecorps, Dsnyder15 and others have caused me to go back for a closer second look at the game replays, and Weathers other intangibles were not bad. Scoring is not the only criteria. As he matures, I now believe he will become a factor for this team. So, come on apluski, give him some room
Off this subject, when the Dukes' shooting went cold against Davidson, Norman should have been in there in a heartbeat--the guy brings it. My opinion is that the Dukes played a damn fine game Saturday. No quit in this team.

You are looking at the stats for his twin brother Micheal.  Micheal was the more sought after recruit.  They choose Miami so they could play together...and they knew the coach.  Marcus was 6-3, 195lb SG in HS.  He played PF and C for Miami...they were very small.  He is now 6-5 and 225 and I think he is still growing.  He was the best rebounder on the team at Miami and out played the MAC MVP Isiah (Big Dog) Johnson who was 6-10 300lbs.   I think Marcus learned to play a secondary role and without the ball because his brother was a dominant scorer who dominated the ball (PG who went to OK State after Cooper was fired at Miami).  Here are Marcus's #s at Miami (keep in mind he was always playing against bigger and stronger kids...he probably gave up 25-50lbs a game):
PPG                  9.7
FG %                 .513
3pt%                  .350
FPG%                .680
RPG:                 6.0
ORPG                2.23
Assists to T/O      .54
 

I I have a two fold reaction to Weathers numbers.

1. Those are definitely good numbers for a freshman big. Especially considering the fact that he played guard in high school which I was unaware of.

2. I don’t think that level of production would have necessarily translated at the A10 level. The OOC this season and the MAC are not what he will likely see in the A10 talent wise, all due respect.

The jury is still out on Weathers for me. He has had some strong performances as well as some weak ones to this point. I do realize he has had some type of injury this year as well which is a factor. I still think we need to see him take a significant step forward this season to feel like he can be the guy at the 4 spot for years to come, especially being 6-5.

It will be interesting to see what happens with recruiting this year. Will we not have another roster spot to go along with Austin because of the Lewis II departure? If that is the case, I would like to see us address the PF position if we can. Have not heard anything as it relates to additional recruiting for 2019 to this point.

I am a MAC guy...and I believe the A10 is better than the MAC.  That said...
https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-basketball/rpi-ranking/rpi-rating-by-conf
http://realtimerpi.com/rpi_conf_Men.html

Marcus was not starting for Miami at the beginning of the year.  He was always in his brothers shadow.  I am very high on Marcus and believe he will do very well in KD's system. He will work within the system so he will seldom be the big scorer that so many view as the measure of success..  He is still young and will make mistakes.  Let's hold off over-analyzing  until year end.
 

Dsnyder15 wrote:

Duques102 wrote:

Dsnyder15 wrote:

You are looking at the stats for his twin brother Micheal.  Micheal was the more sought after recruit.  They choose Miami so they could play together...and they knew the coach.  Marcus was 6-3, 195lb SG in HS.  He played PF and C for Miami...they were very small.  He is now 6-5 and 225 and I think he is still growing.  He was the best rebounder on the team at Miami and out played the MAC MVP Isiah (Big Dog) Johnson who was 6-10 300lbs.   I think Marcus learned to play a secondary role and without the ball because his brother was a dominant scorer who dominated the ball (PG who went to OK State after Cooper was fired at Miami).  Here are Marcus's #s at Miami (keep in mind he was always playing against bigger and stronger kids...he probably gave up 25-50lbs a game):
PPG                  9.7
FG %                 .513
3pt%                  .350
FPG%                .680
RPG:                 6.0
ORPG                2.23
Assists to T/O      .54
 

I I have a two fold reaction to Weathers numbers.

1. Those are definitely good numbers for a freshman big. Especially considering the fact that he played guard in high school which I was unaware of.

2. I don’t think that level of production would have necessarily translated at the A10 level. The OOC this season and the MAC are not what he will likely see in the A10 talent wise, all due respect.

The jury is still out on Weathers for me. He has had some strong performances as well as some weak ones to this point. I do realize he has had some type of injury this year as well which is a factor. I still think we need to see him take a significant step forward this season to feel like he can be the guy at the 4 spot for years to come, especially being 6-5.

It will be interesting to see what happens with recruiting this year. Will we not have another roster spot to go along with Austin because of the Lewis II departure? If that is the case, I would like to see us address the PF position if we can. Have not heard anything as it relates to additional recruiting for 2019 to this point.

I am a MAC guy...and I believe the A10 is better than the MAC.  That said...
https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-basketball/rpi-ranking/rpi-rating-by-conf
http://realtimerpi.com/rpi_conf_Men.html

Marcus was not starting for Miami at the beginning of the year.  He was always in his brothers shadow.  I am very high on Marcus and believe he will do very well in KD's system. He will work within the system so he will seldom be the big scorer that so many view as the measure of success..  He is still young and will make mistakes.  Let's hold off over-analyzing  until year end.
 

The MAC is going on its 20th consecutive year without an at large bid & has 1 tournament win in the last 6 years.

In the past 11 years, the Atlantic 10 has sent at least three teams to the tournament each March and 39 representatives overall, including 28 at-large berths. The highs were six total bids in 2014 and five in 2013. The conference has 13 tournament victories in the last 6 years.

The MAC has 2 former players currently on an NBA roster. The A-10 has 9.

Those conference RPI numbers are fairly meaningless. The MAC was rated better last year too & the A-10 still managed put 3 teams in & get 3 wins while the MAC got its automatic bid & 1 win.

These things are only relevant because we are discussing Weathers's ability to deal with the stronger competition over the next 2.5 seasons.

I really hope he stays, he has a ton to offer. At any other time in the last 20 years he would have been considered a godsend to the program. With modest improvement he could be a great backup PF at this level. I even like the idea of sneaking him in at the 3 for 4-5 minutes a game of maximum rebounding  and defensive intensity against bigger teams.

However, without a huge amount of development, the Dukes will have a hard time being a top 3 team in this league with him starting/playing the majority  of the minutes at the 4. If  he is the starter for his time here it won't be a disaster; he's good. Alternatively, if a player of Marcus's abilities is justly relegated to backup role, the Dukes will be sitting pretty.