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4/11/2019 12:13 pm  #1


Facts on our Transfers

There are around 350 Division 1 basketball teams. For the past five years there have been 800 to 850 transfers a year. That is an average of 2 to 2.5 per team. Coach has brought in 17 of his own players of which eight remain to date on the team. That is losing an average of 4.5 recruits per year. That is almost double the nation average. Add to it that he kept three players from Ferry’s team of which two wound up transferring out. To bring the average of five players transferring out of DU per year. I believe three transfers are troubling, Randall, Lewis and Williams. For the sake of argument, Lewis and Williams were our better players for the past two years. Lewis a quality kid decides mid way through his junior year to transfer, which seems to me, that he wanted to get out in the worst way because it cost him a half a year of his eligibility. We could see that Williams and coach did not see eye to eye mid way through the year. This ultimately led to Williams departure. Randall was willing to sit out a year and never suits up for DU but does decently at Tennessee Martin.  Why Randall left was not under good circumstances and we will never find out that full story.

Having stated the above, a coach’s job is to recruit quality student athletes that fit his program. When these players do not work out for whatever reason, some of the blame has to go to the coaching staff. Are they not able to judge talent for their competition level or they don’t know how to deal with the athletes of today. I believe all coaches should be given four years to turn around a program, therefore some you guys who will come at me with  I want to fire the coach, that is not the case! All I am doing is stating the facts. We lost our two best players along with some of the others who were not able to compete in the A 10.

This was my first post in over two and have months because as I stated in my last post, some of the most ignorant people are regulars to this blog. By ignorant, I mean knowledgeable and respectful.

Last edited by Wildwood13 (4/11/2019 12:22 pm)

 

4/11/2019 12:34 pm  #2


Re: Facts on our Transfers

I think you will see the average number of guys leaving per year drop significantly overtime. You are talking about years where the old coaches players were here, and an abbreviated recruiting season for coach.

In both of these scenarios, coaches and players are both reaching to fill out spots, and higher turnover rates should be expected.

As coach settles in and this program stabilises and develops an identity coach wants it to, we will see more guys staying. Continued success will help with this too.

I really do see this improving. Four guys left. If you take Williams out of the equation, what did we lose (Williams was obviously a loss but I think his production can be mostly replaced when spread among other players)?

Among the three other departures we lost:

14.3 mins per game
2.3 pts per game
1.4 rebs per game
0.85 assists per game

Those are the three guys combined!!!! Maceo, Ellis, or on of the other freshman could greatly exceed that by themselves!!!!

We are ok.

 

4/11/2019 12:53 pm  #3


Re: Facts on our Transfers

I don’t think you can use the first two years of Coach D’s tenure to accurately judge his player retaining abilities. In his first class, for intance, it was clear that all of the high school recruits were major reaches (including Eric based on his offers). This was necessary based on the timing of his hire and the large amount of scholarships available. For year two, we still had approximately seven scholarships to fill, which guarantees that there will be roster attrition. Only so many spots in the rotation. Three of the four guys who left this spring did not have a clear path to significant playing time.

 

4/11/2019 1:18 pm  #4


Re: Facts on our Transfers

Dukes2012 wrote:

I don’t think you can use the first two years of Coach D’s tenure to accurately judge his player retaining abilities. In his first class, for intance, it was clear that all of the high school recruits were major reaches (including Eric based on his offers). This was necessary based on the timing of his hire and the large amount of scholarships available. For year two, we still had approximately seven scholarships to fill, which guarantees that there will be roster attrition. Only so many spots in the rotation. Three of the four guys who left this spring did not have a clear path to significant playing time.

I agree with this.  What people need to realize in evaluating his first two years is that Coach Dambrot took over a team that was a real mess.  Duquesne is not Duke and getting quality players that fit his system takes time.  In his first year he came in very late in the recruiting process.  He had to take some risks on guys like Verhoven, Krivacevic and Kratholm, while building a core of transfers. It didn't work out for those three.  In his second year I really thought he brought in better recruits including Wade, Bizeau and Swingle.  The problem here was that the other kids he bought in the same class and in the '19 recruits (Carry, Rotroff, Kelly, Ellis & Maceo) were better players,  which did not leave much playing time for those three. Nobody can blame players for transferring and doing what is in their best interest.  This includes Williams and Lewis.

I am not worried at this point.  If we have 4 or 5 transfers next season I may be worried.



 

Last edited by CLK (4/11/2019 1:28 pm)

 

4/11/2019 1:33 pm  #5


Re: Facts on our Transfers

Excellent points by all of you...I enjoyed reading them.  Each of your perspectives has logic in it.

 

4/11/2019 1:58 pm  #6


Re: Facts on our Transfers

Another thing to consider was someone HAD to leave. If this wasn’t the case one of the three besides Williams would have likely stay, bringing this year’s number down to three.

Just to grab two guys, would you rather have Bizaue and Wade or Ellis and Maceo. My choice would be the latter.

 

4/11/2019 3:13 pm  #7


Re: Facts on our Transfers

Duquesne has had a rich history of identifying very good under the radar players. The problem is under several coaches, they have not given those players the proper playing time or consideration. Duquesne is not like Robert Morris. Players are not discovering they are better than their level and deciding to move up a notch. I believe most of the players I am describing are leaving Duquesne because they feel/felt dissed. This is not a situation unique to the current coach. I personally feel it is a situation that needs to end. It is hard to develop anything with constant turnover. 

 

4/12/2019 9:05 am  #8


Re: Facts on our Transfers

It appears that the coaches have been using the scholarships in the last few years as an extended tryout lasting through the non conference schedule.  All of these kids are looking for a P-5 offer; so when that doesn’t happen; they need to lower their focus a bit.  The A-20 is a good competitive conference that can often compete with P-5 programs.  Duquesne had the scholarships; so both the player and the school took a chance for the player to prove they could play at this level for one year.  For some it works out and for others it doesn’t.  Nobody is getting screwed; both the player and the school know the future in the program depends on this extended tryout.  Last year Coach D went for D-1 size in hopes that a couple of those guys were keepers.  I think we accomplished that with Rotroff and Kelly; unfortunately the injuries to both derailed their progress.  Biz was worth a shot because of his size and great shot; to me an reasonable gamble.  We never saw Swingle, but again the size was worth a gamble.  I don’t think anyone is questioning Sin Carry or Lamar Norman at this point.  B Wade had some impressive credentials in HS but got thrown into a tough situation when he may not have been ready; perhaps he would have needed more time; something that coaches don’t have these days.

 

4/12/2019 9:15 am  #9


Re: Facts on our Transfers

Unfortunately I do not believe they are using this process to build a team. Under your premise if the player can’t show he is able to compete, he transfers to a lower level school. And if he shows he can compete he transfers to a higher level school. So in the end where does that leave you with players for our team.

     Thread Starter
 

4/12/2019 10:04 am  #10


Re: Facts on our Transfers

Yeah I don't really agree with you on this one. Williams killed it his first two years and has the opportunity to play in a power 5 conference. Coach does his best to encourage people to fill the seats but it's not his fault we have a ZERO home court advantage. 

 


Roll Dukes Roll
 

4/12/2019 11:09 am  #11


Re: Facts on our Transfers

Wildwood13 wrote:

Unfortunately I do not believe they are using this process to build a team. Under your premise if the player can’t show he is able to compete, he transfers to a lower level school. And if he shows he can compete he transfers to a higher level school. So in the end where does that leave you with players for our team.

I think you are on to something.

My complaint was with players like Mike Lewis and Eric Williams. I believe they would have stayed had they been recognized, rewarded with playing time and overall, been treated better.

 

4/12/2019 11:44 am  #12


Re: Facts on our Transfers

Gary2, I don't believe that at all.  As I pointed out previously Eric led the teams in minutes played, shots taken and three point shots taken.  playing time was not an issue.  I think Eric may have felt he was not respected by the A10 for lack of recognition (and rightfully so).  Both of these kids left because they wanted to play on a bigger stage, period.  Who can blame them, for doing what is in their best interest. I read today that Michigan has expressed interest in Eric.  That would be a dream come true for a Michigan kid.

My advise for all the lamenters, is to get over it and move on.   

Last edited by CLK (4/12/2019 11:46 am)

 

4/12/2019 11:50 am  #13


Re: Facts on our Transfers

I wonder what that average looks like among comparable teams. Take the P5 out, for example. My guess would be that it is higher.

Last edited by Face (4/12/2019 11:50 am)

 

4/12/2019 11:55 am  #14


Re: Facts on our Transfers

Again agree with CLK. You know people on this board complained about certain players who transferred. No names please. Then the same people complain about the transfer of 4 players. Yes same posters.what do you want. I hope Coach Dambrot does not read this board. If he did he I hope he simply laughs & does not take it personal. People get a clue. Thanks to the previous administration Dambrot inherited a cluster F##k. Hang in coach keep up the good work. Go Dukes.

 

4/12/2019 11:56 am  #15


Re: Facts on our Transfers

Wildwood....you seem to know the game better than most.  Tell me what you think given these facts: 1. The two best players from prior year are returning. 2.  No seniors. 3. Five tranfers sitting out that will have 3 years left to play.  OK....eight incoming freshman....how many do you think of those eight would be contributors and would it be a surprise if any transferred out?? ...and if you were the head coach....would you have expected all eight to be contributors and return??   In your valued opinion....what should have been the expectations??

 

4/12/2019 12:16 pm  #16


Re: Facts on our Transfers

CLK wrote:

Gary2, I don't believe that at all.  As I pointed out previously Eric led the teams in minutes played, shots taken and three point shots taken.  playing time was not an issue.  I think Eric may have felt he was not respected by the A10 for lack of recognition (and rightfully so).  Both of these kids left because they wanted to play on a bigger stage, period.  Who can blame them, for doing what is in their best interest. I read today that Michigan has expressed interest in Eric.  That would be a dream come true for a Michigan kid.

My advise for all the lamenters, is to get over it and move on.   

You don't believe Dambrot dissed Mike Lewis? You don't believe there was a point during the season where Dambrot was giving Eric Williams "tough love"? PSN indicated Dambrot wanted Williams gone as much as Williams wanted to be gone.

You believe the roster has been upgraded with the players that have replaced this season's transfers? I know recruiting is not completed, but I have not been impressed with the changes to the roster (yet).

I know many believe it to be temporary,  but Dambrot sure looks like a coach that is always going to give more scholarships than available, then just dump players. That is no way to operate and not a recipe for success. 

 

4/12/2019 12:39 pm  #17


Re: Facts on our Transfers

Coach D started Lewis in every game, until he could no longer justify the lineup, but there was little or no evidence that he was helping the team win.  Granted he had a short leash, but Mike just never looked comfortable playing off the ball as a 2.  He wasn’t getting open for his shot, and when he did; he rarely hit the shots.  I think Mike did try to improve his defense; but was never going to be a strong defender.  So I don’t buy the point that he was disrespted by the Coach.

 

4/12/2019 12:41 pm  #18


Re: Facts on our Transfers

About over-recruiting.  CJ McCollum wanted to come to Akron but KD did not have a scholarship available and did not offer.  The rest is history.  KD changed after that (if you ask him...he will point to this as the reason for the change in his philosophy) as the game changed and if he and Akron were to be successful they had to play by the current rules.  Like KD and others....I liked it better before but that ship sailed long ago.

Read "Hilltopper" 4/12 for some insight into KD.

http://zipsnation.org/forums/topic/38269-ole-kd/?tab=comments#comment-314426

Last edited by Dsnyder15 (4/12/2019 2:55 pm)

 

4/12/2019 12:45 pm  #19


Re: Facts on our Transfers

I feel the coach could of handled all the available scholarships two ways. One way is, the way the Coach handled it, by bringing in mass bodies and letting them fight it out and seeing who he likes and dislikes for his system or which recruits could actually play division one basketball. Then you are definitely going to have a mass exodus because there is not enough playing time for all these players who are only two years apart. The way I would of handled it was to bring in three freshman who I really liked as people and players along with the transfer students. It would of left me with more scholarships for this year, for kids i really want and have looked at for a few years that I had a good relationship with. It also lets me stager the number of players in each class. A big factor, in doing it the second way, is that the perception of Duquesne bringing players in and getting rid of them is not there for other schools to use against you recruiting. So to answer your questions, there is no way that they all could of contributed this year and you had to know a lot of them were going to transfer out. But it does give the perception that there is a revolving door here, especially when you lose your top two players from the previous two seasons. As far as expectations, the out of conference schedule the past two years are the weakest I have ever seen and the A10 is the weakest in a long time ( as I stated in early December) so they exceeded my expectations because of the weak schedule. I am willing to give him time to get his type of players. He is taking it one step at a time, where Ron wanted to win big right away and that caught up to him. I also like that he brought his staff and there has not been any turnover, where Ron lost assistant coaches each year. Hope I answered your questions.

     Thread Starter
 

4/12/2019 12:46 pm  #20


Re: Facts on our Transfers

After reading this thread, I have a few thoughts...
1. The average isn't a proper metric for evaluation because the data is most likely skewed. Median is probably a better fit. I have not been able to find that metric.
2. The NCAA states that 40% of basketball players transfer before the end of their sophomore year - we aren't an outlier. 
3. 30% of all basketball players transfer at some point during their career - we aren't an outlier
4. I'm surprised some of you are able to post after the complete and utter shock and dismay from Duquesne not winning the national championship this year.
5. Dambrot has been on the bluff a hair over 24 months. On the whole, I've seen progress and development. Yes, losing EW hurts, get over it. It is not an indication of a crumbling system. 

 

4/12/2019 1:28 pm  #21


Re: Facts on our Transfers

levon1975 wrote:

Coach D started Lewis in every game, until he could no longer justify the lineup, but there was little or no evidence that he was helping the team win. Granted he had a short leash, but Mike just never looked comfortable playing off the ball as a 2. He wasn’t getting open for his shot, and when he did; he rarely hit the shots. I think Mike did try to improve his defense; but was never going to be a strong defender. So I don’t buy the point that he was disrespted by the Coach.

I was at the Pitt game. Mike Lewis took one shot before the last shot. Why do you think that was?

 

4/12/2019 1:42 pm  #22


Re: Facts on our Transfers

gary2 wrote:

levon1975 wrote:

Coach D started Lewis in every game, until he could no longer justify the lineup, but there was little or no evidence that he was helping the team win. Granted he had a short leash, but Mike just never looked comfortable playing off the ball as a 2. He wasn’t getting open for his shot, and when he did; he rarely hit the shots. I think Mike did try to improve his defense; but was never going to be a strong defender. So I don’t buy the point that he was disrespted by the Coach.

I was at the Pitt game. Mike Lewis took one shot before the last shot. Why do you think that was?

Mike was struggling.  If you watched Mike you know he was more of a catch and shoot guy.  He was not a player who could consistently create his own shot, particularly against better competition.  Against Pitt he just could not get open.  I remember watching him and wondering if he was hurt because he seemed to standing still or running at half speed. Look I am not going to try to change your views.  It seems that you think Coach D is evil, and we need to hire Mr. Rodgers.
 

 

4/12/2019 1:46 pm  #23


Re: Facts on our Transfers

gary2 wrote:

levon1975 wrote:

Coach D started Lewis in every game, until he could no longer justify the lineup, but there was little or no evidence that he was helping the team win. Granted he had a short leash, but Mike just never looked comfortable playing off the ball as a 2. He wasn’t getting open for his shot, and when he did; he rarely hit the shots. I think Mike did try to improve his defense; but was never going to be a strong defender. So I don’t buy the point that he was disrespted by the Coach.

I was at the Pitt game. Mike Lewis took one shot before the last shot. Why do you think that was?

Perhaps he couldn't get open; perhaps he could not run his defender off of a screen; perhaps he couldn't figure out how to get open without the ball.  Mike was one of the better creators when he had the ball in his hands, working off of a high ball screen; he could usually manufacture a shot, and make a fair amount, in that situation.  With Sin Carry as the PG and the stagnant high ball screen not a big part of KD's offense, the situation didn't play into Mike's strengths.
 

 

4/12/2019 1:48 pm  #24


Re: Facts on our Transfers

CLK wrote:

gary2 wrote:

levon1975 wrote:

Coach D started Lewis in every game, until he could no longer justify the lineup, but there was little or no evidence that he was helping the team win. Granted he had a short leash, but Mike just never looked comfortable playing off the ball as a 2. He wasn’t getting open for his shot, and when he did; he rarely hit the shots. I think Mike did try to improve his defense; but was never going to be a strong defender. So I don’t buy the point that he was disrespted by the Coach.

I was at the Pitt game. Mike Lewis took one shot before the last shot. Why do you think that was?

Mike was struggling.  If you watched Mike you know he was more of a catch and shoot guy.  He was not a player who could consistently create his own shot, particularly against better competition.  Against Pitt he just could not get open.  I remember watching him and wondering if he was hurt because he seemed to standing still or running at half speed. Look I am not going to try to change your views.  It seems that you think Coach D is evil, and we need to hire Mr. Rodgers.
 

Agreed, CLK.  Deer in the headlights; Mike was completely lost as the 2 guard in KD's system.  Not saying that Mike was a bad player; no, we saw he had talent. He just wasn't going to flourish here.

Last edited by PhoenixRising2 (4/12/2019 1:49 pm)

 

4/12/2019 2:06 pm  #25


Re: Facts on our Transfers

Why do you guys think he was so successful the previous year with Dambrot but the second year he did not improve and got lost?

     Thread Starter
 

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