The shootings were a great tragedy and I'm sure they had a pretty profound effect on the program, but I don't think it set us back as much as some are suggesting. It's disgusting what happened to Ashalou and he's an amazing story to have come through all of it with a degree. There's no telling what he could have been on the basketball court, but I will say the same for Baldonado. Correct me if you have, but did anyone actually see him play before the shooting?  He came aboard with a lot of hype but in the end the injuries he experienced in the shooting and some bad personal decisions derailed him. I have no idea what he could've actually become as I never saw him, but if he were the program changer, I think he would have had more interest from other, bigger schools than he did. Reggie Jackson and Gary Tucker were both good but not great players. I think you could find a handful of guards better than them in more recent classes. Grote was ok but immediately got recruited over. Robert Mitchell may have been the most talented player Ron brought to Duquesne, but I don't think you can be sure that he stays shooting or not. So is the team better without the shooting? Certainly, but I don't think they're suddenly an elite team or even a .500 team. That team won games IMO because the 10/40 caught their opponents off guard for a few weeks until they adjusted. IMO, that team healthy may or may not have won 12 games that season without the 10/40. Personally, I take this year's team over a healthy 2006-07 team.

Talent wasn't a problem for the 2008 team regardless of the shooting and if they played a bad system too long, that's on Ron. That freshman class yielded of the two best players in the Everhart era and in the previous 15 years in Saunders and Clark who stayed long enough to cement their place in Duquesne history. They sit 11th and 7th respectively and Saunders holds the record for steals, blocks and is among the all time leaders in rebounds and double - doubles. Mitchell could have ended his career in the top 3, but I doubt there is another player in the 2007 class who would rank among the greats. IMO, the 2007 class was better than the 2006.

The shooting is one of the great "what if's" in Ron Everhart's career as the head coach. However, I believe he was fired because his career at Duquesne was to littered with too many "what if's" to be certain that he could take the program to the next level. The job Ron did his job deserves respect and I look forward to cheering for him when he is announced at the game against WVU. He was just what the program needed when we needed it and I hope Ferry proves to be the same. I don't look at Everhart's time here as anything but a positive even if I think moving on was the correct move for the athletic department to make. When the time comes, I'd gladly back him for the Duquesne Hall of Fame. However, I don't think Ron was doomed by the shootings or that they effected the programs as much as turnover and collapses did later.

steve19981 wrote:

The shootings were a great tragedy and I'm sure they had a pretty profound effect on the program, but I don't think it set us back as much as some are suggesting. It's disgusting what happened to Ashalou and he's an amazing story to have come through all of it with a degree. There's no telling what he could have been on the basketball court, but I will say the same for Baldonado. Correct me if you have, but did anyone actually see him play before the shooting?  He came aboard with a lot of hype but in the end the injuries he experienced in the shooting and some bad personal decisions derailed him. I have no idea what he could've actually become as I never saw him, but if he were the program changer, I think he would have had more interest from other, bigger schools than he did. Reggie Jackson and Gary Tucker were both good but not great players. I think you could find a handful of guards better than them in more recent classes. Grote was ok but immediately got recruited over. Robert Mitchell may have been the most talented player Ron brought to Duquesne, but I don't think you can be sure that he stays shooting or not. So is the team better without the shooting? Certainly, but I don't think they're suddenly an elite team or even a .500 team. That team won games IMO because the 10/40 caught their opponents off guard for a few weeks until they adjusted. IMO, that team healthy may or may not have won 12 games that season without the 10/40. Personally, I take this year's team over a healthy 2006-07 team.

Talent wasn't a problem for the 2008 team regardless of the shooting and if they played a bad system too long, that's on Ron. That freshman class yielded of the two best players in the Everhart era and in the previous 15 years in Saunders and Clark who stayed long enough to cement their place in Duquesne history. They sit 11th and 7th respectively and Saunders holds the record for steals, blocks and is among the all time leaders in rebounds and double - doubles. Mitchell could have ended his career in the top 3, but I doubt there is another player in the 2007 class who would rank among the greats. IMO, the 2007 class was better than the 2006.

The shooting is one of the great "what if's" in Ron Everhart's career as the head coach. However, I believe he was fired because his career at Duquesne was to littered with too many "what if's" to be certain that he could take the program to the next level. The job Ron did his job deserves respect and I look forward to cheering for him when he is announced at the game against WVU. He was just what the program needed when we needed it and I hope Ferry proves to be the same. I don't look at Everhart's time here as anything but a positive even if I think moving on was the correct move for the athletic department to make. When the time comes, I'd gladly back him for the Duquesne Hall of Fame. However, I don't think Ron was doomed by the shootings or that they effected the programs as much as turnover and collapses did later.

Steve, I don't think that Ron's first team would have been great, but I do think they may have been better without the shooting. I've pointed out many times why I think the shooting affected his second team. It's not that I expected Baldonado to be a great player, it's just that his absence left a hole. The second thing that caused that team to underachieve was 10/40. Ron fell in love with 10/40, and changed his style. 10/40 left his best players on the bench too much, and kept him from putting his best lineup on the court. We had a chance to go big, in a league where there wasn't a lot of quality size. Maybe I'm wrong, but I love size. You have to really have superior talent to succeed playing small ball. It's why I'm really hoping that Ferry can develop Abele to the point where can command 20 to 25 minutes a game. Size is very difficult to counteract, and Ron's second team would have had size and depth. I think it would have been our best team since 1972, even without Mitchell and Grote.

Maybe there's another unknown about the shooting. What effect might it have played in recruiting? I'd guess it certainly was discussed by some families of potential future recruit's; and probably very vaguely reminded (tastefully) by other recruiters. It's not to say it was a reason we didn't recruit four-star players afterwards, but in theory, make very slight changes to events in history and it theoretically creates the possibility of significant changes in the present. None-the-less, it can never become more that hypothetical and I'll probably always wonder, what if...

ElDuque wrote:

Apluski, there is no doubt that for 2-3 years other coaches were whispering into recruits' ears, "You want to go there? They have basketball players being shot right on campus." It would've happened even if a shot had been fired and hit no one. Especially when coaches think they want a particular player, they will use anything and everything they can. It's a very ugly side of recruiting.

I doubt it had much effect. Most recruits are black kids from rough neighborhoods where gunshots are sadly a way of life. They're not going to be fazed by what happened. These kids are quite used to being around thugs, and are used to navigating their way around these types. If being in a bad area was such a deal breaker, Temple would be the worst team in America. The shooting didn't keep us from getting Damian, and Bill Clark, nor did it even scare away TJ. You guys are looking at it from your own suburban background, not from the viewpoint of the players. Once the kids heard the story of what happened, they would realize that it was a random incident, that really had nothing to do with the school, or it's location. Had this been a case of thugs from the Hill coming on campus, and robbing and shooting students, it would be different. The perps were actually from the other side of town, and were brought there by a student.

ElDuque wrote:

Duq81, I get what you're saying, but actually, I'm paraphrasing what I heard from a college coach.

Also, my perspective isn't what you might think. My "suburban" background includes seeing the riots in Newark in the 1960s with my own eyes (I grew up across the GSP from the old Pabst Blue Ribbon brewery), growing up in a neighgborhood where you didn't so much walk home from school as fight your way home (I probably lost 99% of those to older, bigger and tougher kids), and watching a man get his hand severed in a fight a block from my house while having lunch at a local hot dog joint (yes, the famous Jimmy Buff's).

The first home I bought, the first night I was sleeping there, I woke up to gun shots and sirens and seeing the neiughbor across the street being arrested in a scene straight out of "Cops" - he was even hauled away without a shirt. That's why I moved out to the country. I only have to listen to guns being fired during hunting season now.

And of course, I now own a lot of gaudy, reflective orange clothing!   

ED, I don't doubt that coaches tried to use it against us. I just doubt that it had much effect. There are kids from the inner city who want to get away from that type of setting. It might have an effect on them, but they're probably a long shot anyway. There are other kids who would blanch at the thought of going to Podunk for 4 years, and are very comfortable in a tough urban setting. Of course many people who love a tough urban setting at 18, want peace and quiet at 30+, once wife and kids come into the picture.

duq81 wrote:

ElDuque wrote:

Apluski, there is no doubt that for 2-3 years other coaches were whispering into recruits' ears, "You want to go there? They have basketball players being shot right on campus." It would've happened even if a shot had been fired and hit no one. Especially when coaches think they want a particular player, they will use anything and everything they can. It's a very ugly side of recruiting.

I doubt it had much effect. Most recruits are black kids from rough neighborhoods where gunshots are sadly a way of life. They're not going to be fazed by what happened. These kids are quite used to being around thugs, and are used to navigating their way around these types. If being in a bad area was such a deal breaker, Temple would be the worst team in America. The shooting didn't keep us from getting Damian, and Bill Clark, nor did it even scare away TJ. You guys are looking at it from your own suburban background, not from the viewpoint of the players. Once the kids heard the story of what happened, they would realize that it was a random incident, that really had nothing to do with the school, or it's location. Had this been a case of thugs from the Hill coming on campus, and robbing and shooting students, it would be different. The perps were actually from the other side of town, and were brought there by a student.

I've got to disagree with some of your points. I believe that growing up in rough neighborhoods does not cause kids/young men/adults/senior citizens to become accustomed to gun shots. No one ever gets to a point where they become desensitized to gun shots or shootings (having personally grown up in Beltzhoover and lived in the city until after grad school and been shot/wounded several times in the service) I can personally assure you that 20 some years of hearing gun shots did not cause me to become accustomed to it--ever.
In addition, people who live in those type of environments are much more sensitive and likely to react to incidents like our shootings. Parents, especially, want to get their kids out of what they perceive as potentially dangerous areas. So yeah, I think recruiters beat that story like a drum and yeah, I think it had to have had some affect on recruiting inner-city and suburban (one wants to escape it and the other wants to avoid it--take your pick). I believe that after hearing some combination of wording like (...players were shot on the Duquesne campus), that a goodly percentage of people were not swayed back to warm and fuzzy thoughts about Duquesne, merely by bringing up Temple, the thugs didn't live near campus or don't look at it like a suburbanite.

"His assistants backstabbed him, but he hired them. When you hire amateurs, you get amateurs. He had a higher than average transfer rate that suggests it was more than him getting unlucky. He brought in a lot of questionable talent and failed to retain his stars."

Steve ... in the case of the assistants, one hardly justifies the other. In the case of the players, he brought in plenty of good ones despite the situation here. He also made a star out of Aaron jackson and turned a walk-on (Jason Duty) into gold. I know you're happy he's moved on because you've done enough snickering about it. Ron's a good man and a good coach, and some program that needs a guy who can rebuild from ashes will make a smart decision and hire him. And he'll be successful again.

CLK wrote:

Steve we will have to disagree on this as you & I can not prove nor disprove what could have been achieved with a healthy Baldinado & Ashalu in Ron's 1st year nor what impact the injuries to Kojo and James affected their game in Ron's second year.  I can tell you that in the '06-'07 season Ron won 10 games, and lost 7 with a margin of 4 points or less and lost a couple more within 6 points or less.  It is my opinion that Baldinado would have more than accounted for that difference as the Dukes were out rebounded that year by 1110 to 943.  17 to 19 wins that season IMO would have been most definitely achievable. Again we will never know how successful Ron would have been, but I don't understand how some can think that the shootings did not negatively impact the program.

Good points but I will accept an agreement to disagree.