NapaDuke wrote:

duq81 wrote:

NapaDuke wrote:

Ferry's big mistake,like many past coaches that have failed here is you can't out-recruit better programs for players that fit that half-court-Pitt-style game. We just are not going to get 4 and 5 star recruits, so why play their game??  Ron's success was he didn't recruit nor play their game but instead found lighter, faster players that were over looked by Bigger programs and exploited weakness in the teams that played the slower, run-down the shot-clock-half-court-game.  A typical score for Pitt is winning 60 to 58  vs   Ron's style teams might hit 100.  It's odd someone in a recent post mentioned the better teams in this league like G.W. and UMASS, Ron beat them almost every year?  I'm not saying we are going to get Ron back, but what I am saying is this is the reality!  Duquesne University Basketball will not compete toe to toe with Big Programs playing their game, PERIOD !  We can't out recruit for those players. Just won't happen.  Find some young coach that sees a different game, from a D-2 school that runs the full 40 minutes, plays man to man, that presses the whole game, that traps and steals constantly, that makes baskets in transition and doesn't get catch standing still in a zone defense, BECAUSE lesser talented players are at their weakest stand still in a zone defense, then just maybe, we might win again. If you don't see that we lost consistantly for over 20 years with coaches trying to be Half-court style teams, then one coach comes in and runs something different and wins, then we get Ferry in trying the old stuff again with no success, then we will continue this loosing.  I know we all want to win, but this present path just isn't the way to do it. It's not the players, it's the system!         

I can't remember a single coach who came here with the idea of running a Pitt style offense, just the opposite. Ferry promised a high scoring team. What happens is that the players are not good enough to get out there and run with good teams. What Ron did, especially early on, was run weaker teams off the court. If you beat the weaker teams consistently, and steal a few from the better teams, you end up above .500 most years. That is what Ron did. The struggle was to become good enough to dominate your home floor, even against the better teams, while winning road games vs middle of the pack teams. This was the hump that Ron struggled to get over, and where complaints about not reaching the "next level" came from. You need to be deep, and talented to play a 94 foot game for 40 minutes. While perpetual mediocrity is unacceptable, and RE was going to have to get over the hump sooner, rather than later, considering how bad the track record was between Carroll's firing, and Ron's arrival, a bit more patience was in order. Now, if the program had dropped below .500 the following 2 years, and didn't look like it was trending upward, I'd have been on here calling for Ron's head, but we never reached that point.

    Again, as for the slower style that Pitt has run, that is exactly the type of style you need to run when your talent is not quite as good as the better teams on your schedule.
 

Ron had something going and never got a big guy since James played to go with the fast pace game. Andre just was not the answer and in fact, just could not replace Damian at all and that was the end for Ron. I don't know if Donovan coming in could have worked though maybe, and Ron should have never given TJ his release, but that's history. Ron was on to something that worked here maybe it needed time for him to figure everything out or maybe another coach with a similar style should have been hired that  could do better.  But here's a though to stomach the cost of firing Ferry, find a young successful D-2 coach and give him a chance at a low salary with incentives based on performace?? P    

Not giving TJ a release wouldn't have kept him here. It would have made him have to pay the year he sat out at Zona, and would have made Ron look petty.
By the way, Nee was not successful at RMU, and his record at Nebraska wasn't all that great either, mainly built by buying, and beating cupcakes in the ooc.

FAM, as one of the only 100 or so Duquesne students who attend most home games, my email to the President will be asking what can be done to re-establish student interest in the program. I'm afraid that all sports at Duquesne may be gone in 4 or 5 years. I feel embarrassed for our school when I see the spirit at virtually all other colleges and universities, no matter what their record is.

Last edited by Brewstem (1/29/2015 3:58 pm)

duq81 wrote:

NapaDuke wrote:

duq81 wrote:

I can't remember a single coach who came here with the idea of running a Pitt style offense, just the opposite. Ferry promised a high scoring team. What happens is that the players are not good enough to get out there and run with good teams. What Ron did, especially early on, was run weaker teams off the court. If you beat the weaker teams consistently, and steal a few from the better teams, you end up above .500 most years. That is what Ron did. The struggle was to become good enough to dominate your home floor, even against the better teams, while winning road games vs middle of the pack teams. This was the hump that Ron struggled to get over, and where complaints about not reaching the "next level" came from. You need to be deep, and talented to play a 94 foot game for 40 minutes. While perpetual mediocrity is unacceptable, and RE was going to have to get over the hump sooner, rather than later, considering how bad the track record was between Carroll's firing, and Ron's arrival, a bit more patience was in order. Now, if the program had dropped below .500 the following 2 years, and didn't look like it was trending upward, I'd have been on here calling for Ron's head, but we never reached that point.

    Again, as for the slower style that Pitt has run, that is exactly the type of style you need to run when your talent is not quite as good as the better teams on your schedule.
 

Ron had something going and never got a big guy since James played to go with the fast pace game. Andre just was not the answer and in fact, just could not replace Damian at all and that was the end for Ron. I don't know if Donovan coming in could have worked though maybe, and Ron should have never given TJ his release, but that's history. Ron was on to something that worked here maybe it needed time for him to figure everything out or maybe another coach with a similar style should have been hired that  could do better.  But here's a though to stomach the cost of firing Ferry, find a young successful D-2 coach and give him a chance at a low salary with incentives based on performace?? P    

Not giving TJ a release wouldn't have kept him here. It would have made him have to pay the year he sat out at Zona, and would have made Ron look petty.
By the way, Nee was not successful at RMU, and his record at Nebraska wasn't all that great either, mainly built by buying, and beating cupcakes in the ooc.

If Nee wasn't successful anywhere like you say, then why did we steal him away from RM?  And really 81, with no one coach or style of play in 30 years coming close to Ron's record  here at this place,  what's your solution?  All I see is this presnt coach can't coach at this level and the same old, same old going on, don't you? And as finding a D-2 coach, I meant, someone that sees a different game rather than the constant loosing model that keeps landing here. I,ve been watching DU BBall since my freshman year in 72. It,s been too many years with this constant loosing approach that just keeps going on.  Then, when one coach comes alone and puts 4 or 5 decent years together and he's fired and replaced with the same style of play that keeps us at the bottom.    It's just my oppinion and you have a right to yours, and just throwing money at this program isn't going to change it, because there are over 300 D-1 programs doing the same thing also with little success, so it has to be the coach and the style. Just think about it.  

duq81 wrote:

While perpetual mediocrity is unacceptable, and RE was going to have to get over the hump sooner, rather than later, considering how bad the track record was between Carroll's firing, and Ron's arrival, a bit more patience was in order. Now, if the program had dropped below .500 the following 2 years, and didn't look like it was trending upward, I'd have been on here calling for Ron's head, but we never reached that point.

 

Wow duq81, you basically just summed up my view on the whole situation from three years ago. That is how I have always felt, and I would imagine a lot of the "Ron camp"  (I defined us as "the Pragmatists" on a thread about this subject on the other board.)

After single digit win totals became the norm, rather than the exception over that decade in the wilderness, the guy who at his worst was mediocre 13-17 wins or so, and usually on the right side of .500, deserved more.  Hey, would any of you right now trade this current train wreck, which appears to be (another yet again......sigh) five years to have any hopes of righting under Ferry, for those years of Ron's teams beating Xavier and GW and U Mass? 

Mediocrity would at least give us something to talk about. More than 100 students at a game, the occasional packed Palumbo for a decent opponent, as opposed to 2,000 or so, mostly Dayton fans, rattling around the Consol?  At least we would have hope for a lucky conference title run, rather than this utter despair that we have been reduced to.  Not sucking hind teat behind Robert Morris and maybe an actual beat reporter, rather than wire service reports from our games I the local fish wrap?

Although I do find it funny that for years we griped about BC because of his passivity. We finally get the AD that makes the big bold move and it blows up in his and our faces!
 

This talk about a young D-2 coach makes me wonder why would one want the job?

Many here don't seem to like Scott Edgar, but he and his wife were friends of mine. Elaine Edgar told me, "Phil, we were warned when Scott looked  at this job that it was a graveyard for incoming coaches, but he members Duquesne from the 1960's and early 1970's and he thought he could bring it back"

Now he had a winning back ground at Murry State and had been with good Nolan Richardson teams at Tulane and Arkansas when they were National Champs. It didn't work at Duquesne for him.
Before him came John Carrol from a winning NCAA team as asst. And good D-2 record.

Jim Satalin won a Bona and did NCAA and NIT with excellent player, but could not recruit after the false rape affair.
Nee's best years were behind him, DAP got ruined here, RE won here, period .

Duquesne is a graveyard for men's basketball , no fans, high school facilities and I never expect it to change. It breaks my heart to say it because of the fun I had over the years being a fan.

Phildog wrote:

This talk about a young D-2 coach makes me wonder why would one want the job?

Many here don't seem to like Scott Edgar, but he and his wife were friends of mine. Elaine Edgar told me, "Phil, we were warned when Scott looked at this job that it was a graveyard for incoming coaches, but he members Duquesne from the 1960's and early 1970's and he thought he could bring it back"

Now he had a winning back ground at Murry State and had been with good Nolan Richardson teams at Tulane and Arkansas when they were National Champs. It didn't work at Duquesne for him.
Before him came John Carrol from a winning NCAA team as asst. And good D-2 record.

Jim Satalin won a Bona and did NCAA and NIT with excellent player, but could not recruit after the false rape affair.
Nee's best years were behind him, DAP got ruined here, RE won here, period .

Duquesne is a graveyard for men's basketball , no fans, high school facilities and I never expect it to change. It breaks my heart to say it because of the fun I had over the years being a fan.

I've long been an Edgar basher, so I'll bite. I'm sure that Scott Edgar was a good guy. My criticism of him is related to a few things. He inherited a very solid core. Tom Pipkins was a very good player at this level. Edgar had him for two years. Mike James spent over a decade playing in the best league in the world. He's probably the second best player to pull on a Duquesne uniform since Willie Somerset. Kevin Price was the second leading scorer in WPIAL history (behind Pipkins). Nick Bosnic was good enough coming out of high school to get a scholarship from an elite ACC power (Maryland). None of the other coaches inherited anything close to this type of talent. There is just no excuse to fail as badly as he did. Ron Everhart inherited half of what Edgar did (Achara, and Jackson), and won 48 games in his first 3 years (despite the shooting), while Edgar won 29. Why did Edgar fail? He badly underestimated the level of play in the A10, and he brought in guys who weren't close in talent to what was needed at this level. Also, he played a style of up and down ball that is designed to wear the other team out. This requires a very deep team, which of course with the crap "talent" he brought in, we weren't. Jim Satalin would have won a ton of games if he had the four players I mentioned on his team. Even Danny Nee would have likely squeezed a winning season out of that group.
 

duq81 wrote:

Phildog wrote:

This talk about a young D-2 coach makes me wonder why would one want the job?

Many here don't seem to like Scott Edgar, but he and his wife were friends of mine. Elaine Edgar told me, "Phil, we were warned when Scott looked at this job that it was a graveyard for incoming coaches, but he members Duquesne from the 1960's and early 1970's and he thought he could bring it back"

Now he had a winning back ground at Murry State and had been with good Nolan Richardson teams at Tulane and Arkansas when they were National Champs. It didn't work at Duquesne for him.
Before him came John Carrol from a winning NCAA team as asst. And good D-2 record.

Jim Satalin won a Bona and did NCAA and NIT with excellent player, but could not recruit after the false rape affair.
Nee's best years were behind him, DAP got ruined here, RE won here, period .

Duquesne is a graveyard for men's basketball , no fans, high school facilities and I never expect it to change. It breaks my heart to say it because of the fun I had over the years being a fan.

I've long been an Edgar basher, so I'll bite. I'm sure that Scott Edgar was a good guy. My criticism of him is related to a few things. He inherited a very solid core. Tom Pipkins was a very good player at this level. Edgar had him for two years. Mike James spent over a decade playing in the best league in the world. He's probably the second best player to pull on a Duquesne uniform since Willie Somerset. Kevin Price was the second leading scorer in WPIAL history (behind Pipkins). Nick Bosnic was good enough coming out of high school to get a scholarship from an elite ACC power (Maryland). None of the other coaches inherited anything close to this type of talent. There is just no excuse to fail as badly as he did. Ron Everhart inherited half of what Edgar did (Achara, and Jackson), and won 48 games in his first 3 years (despite the shooting), while Edgar won 29. Why did Edgar fail? He badly underestimated the level of play in the A10, and he brought in guys who weren't close in talent to what was needed at this level. Also, he played a style of up and down ball that is designed to wear the other team out. This requires a very deep team, which of course with the crap "talent" he brought in, we weren't. Jim Satalin would have won a ton of games if he had the four players I mentioned on his team. Even Danny Nee would have likely squeezed a winning season out of that group.
 

Totally agreed on that. Nobody inherited a cushier berth than Edgar, and he was completely unable to do anything with it!  The Peter Principle in action.  Yeah, he was a nice guy, (but my Father's a nice guy too and he ain't funny either.  :-)  )

(Ok, who got that movie reference? ;-)  Anyone?
 

FAM, as stated several times, Ferry gets more time for several reasons (not that he has shown that he deserves it), however, this program can't survive two more years of Amodio.  There needs to be a change now to unite the dwindling fan base and to provide hope for the future.  Unless Ferry goes on a major winning streak (not talking two or three games) Amodio has to go after this season.  Once the decision is reached a search committee needs to be formed and proper search needs to be completed, that includes some key alums. DU has to get this hiring right.