Ghost of Walter White wrote:

Agree CLK. It's a sewer. The deck is stacked against mid-Majors thanks to ESPN,FOXSports, CBS and Nike.
You can spin it any way you want but Williams transfer is a gut punch. Don't think for one minute he wasn't contacted by a P5. Mid-Majors are now the Altoona Curve for the big boys and the big money.
I also follow Ohio U and Kent State. ( my kids go there) and in the past two years both programs have had established players " transfer" to Michigan, Xavier and Illinois. I'm sick of it but as long as the P5 get their players and their money from the networks and shoe companies the NCAA doesn't give a crap.
 

You're exactly right. Even when one of the big networks puts a mid-Major game on they use it as a platform to talk P5 conferences, teams, and players for two hours.
 

phil95 wrote:

Dsnyder15 wrote:

I think Eric Williams will be missed but not as much as most here think....he was not someone who made the team better.  Not that his game is similar...but he reminds me of Iverson or Wall...prolific scorers who can't seem to get their team to the top and whose teams under-performed.  I was bothered by some of the comments here early in the year that he seemed upset because he was not getting the ball where he wanted it or when he was in his spot he was not getting the ball.  It seemed that he felt the team should have been built around him.  Maybe I misinterpreted those posts. 

Here is what I saw.:
The good:
1. He was good around the rim.
2. He was a good shot when he set his feet.  His 3pt % was more than acceptable.
3. He was an active rebounder and was especially effective on the offensive end.  He was hard to box out.

The Bad:
1. He was not a great defender and was not a committed defender.
2. He seldom boxed out.  He was a freelance active player that got a lot of rebounds because of the activity.
3. He was not a good shooter....or at least not a good shooter when his feet where not set. (see below)
4. I don't think he worked well in a team environment...he was not a big assist guy....he had 10 more TOs than assists..
5. He seldom played "big" in big games.  The first Dayton game was lost because of his poor play down the stretch.


Here are key stats for me when thinking about Williams:
When you take away the 3pt shots and dunks he was 61 for 171 or 35.7%.  That is horrible. Included in that 35.7% were a LOT of lay-ups and the % was very high on those shots.  Without the lay-ups, his shooting % would have been in the 20% range.  It did help him get to the line.  Taking FT into consideration...he scored 211 points (including free throws as none came from the 3s or dunks) on those 171 shots.  That is an efficiency of 1.23 points per shot (excluding 3s and dunks).  Sounds OK but is below the average for the team of 1.24 (all shots) and 1.50 (excluding 3pts).  He simply was not a good shooter and took way to many low % shots.  

I think Williams could have been a great player if he played within the team framework.  He shot way to many low % shots when he should have been looking for teammates and moving the ball.  The current version of EW will be missed but I believe the team will improve quicker without him.  If he would have improved his intermediate shot and played a smarter game...I think he would have been one of the top A10 guys the next 2 years. It may serve him well to sit out a year and not be considered the best player on the team.  He will now have to earn his minutes on a new team and do that while not getting an PT next season.  I think you will see a better EW in the future.  I am not sure that would have happened here.

EW certainly had some warts. Most notably his attitude, lack of maturity, & public interactions with the coaching staff were big problems for a large part of the season. But, you lost me at, "he was not someone who made the team better."

-He is not a good or very good rebounder. He is an exceptional rebounder. Pound for pound; probably the best rebounder in the conference. Given the fact that only Carry & Weathers box out with any frequency, I think any criticism in this area has at least as much to do with being held accountable by the coaching staff.

-He is not yet a great shooter but he showed year over year improvment in overall FG percentage, 3pt FG percentage, & FT percentage. How many players shooting stats hold-up after taking dunks & layups out of the equation? With the green light that these players have, it is no wonder that endless bad shots are taken. Do you think that Houston & Wisconsin are interested because they believe he can't shoot? He is more of a scorer than a shooter but with a more mature offense he is likely to be both.

-He is a modern wing/small forward & as such his assist rate is just fine. He had about 80% more assists than either MHughes or Weathers with 1 less total turnover than MHughes & 4 more than Weathers.

-When properly engaged, Eric is an excellent defender. He did some of his best work when the shots weren't falling for him. He has a much better understanding of the switches & rotations than everybody but Carry & Mike Hughes. There were at least 5 games when he was the best defender on the team. His length & athleticism are close to elite & that bothers the man he is guarding.  However, I have to grant that this is where his attitude hurt him most & that was on display for all to see. 

-Eric had some very clutch moments as a freshman. Not so much as a sophomore. However, over the last 3 games of the season, when the games had real consequences, he was the best player on the team.   

Any way you slice it, Eric is a major loss & it will be very difficult to replace his production. It is also very telling that the press has reported his transfer as a mutual decision between school & player.

 

It may well prove out that EW will make a better pro than college player. He's got great potential and certainly could be considered the best talent on the team. But, as we are seeing, the current coach is of the mind that if you don't play as a team, there's no place here for you at Duquesne, which plays the college game. The goal is to win an A10 championship. Dambrot isn't about individual accolades. The sooner anyone who comes to Duquesne and plays for him understands that, then we'll be getting somewhere. I'm glad the school finally has a good coach with an administration that believes in him. They had a good coach before (remember that 4-year stretch of no losing seasons?), but the higher-ups were clueless. Let's hope there's no replay of that scenario again.

Ghost of Walter White wrote:

Agree CLK. It's a sewer. The deck is stacked against mid-Majors thanks to ESPN,FOXSports, CBS and Nike.
You can spin it any way you want but Williams transfer is a gut punch. Don't think for one minute he wasn't contacted by a P5. Mid-Majors are now the Altoona Curve for the big boys and the big money.
I also follow Ohio U and Kent State. ( my kids go there) and in the past two years both programs have had established players " transfer" to Michigan, Xavier and Illinois. I'm sick of it but as long as the P5 get their players and their money from the networks and shoe companies the NCAA doesn't give a crap.
 

It's a revolving door. The Eric Williams of the world move up, the Frankie Hughes of the world get sent down. There are those pushing for the removal of all restrictions. If that happens, you'll see all of the success at lower levels moving up, while the players that fail at the P5 level get sent down to us, and our scrubs get sent to the low majors. The low majors will really be left with the scraps, as the Mids, and P5 also-rans scramble to fill the holes created by the loss of their best players.

Crosseye wrote:

It may well prove out that EW will make a better pro than college player. He's got great potential and certainly could be considered the best talent on the team. But, as we are seeing, the current coach is of the mind that if you don't play as a team, there's no place here for you at Duquesne, which plays the college game. The goal is to win an A10 championship. Dambrot isn't about individual accolades. The sooner anyone who comes to Duquesne and plays for him understands that, then we'll be getting somewhere. I'm glad the school finally has a good coach with an administration that believes in him. They had a good coach before (remember that 4-year stretch of no losing seasons?), but the higher-ups were clueless. Let's hope there's no replay of that scenario again.

I don't really understand the knock that EW didn't play as a part of the team. This has been merely asserted,  or the conclusions of all the board's court certified body language experts. They rarely called plays for him and he still was extremely productive. 
Losing talented players who can score with very low utilization is bad, actually. It doesn't help you win championships. If Dambrot only wants grinders who don't want to get drafted, get ahead, and play at the next level,  he's not going to be successful. The A10 has too much talent to get by on team with no one who wants to be a star, or one where  your stars transfer out every year. 

Not suggesting it’s anyone from this board but I just feel like I gotta say the criticism directed at Eric on Twitter is pretty classless.

We are fans of a basketball program, it’s a pastime for us. For these kids it’s their life. They don’t owe us anything, they have the right to make their own life decisions the same way we all do.

We can be angry, mad, disappointed, whatever about the situation but should hold ourselves to something higher than personal attacks. If Sin leaves this is gonna be 10x worse

Crosseye wrote:

phil95 wrote:

Dsnyder15 wrote:

I think Eric Williams will be missed but not as much as most here think....he was not someone who made the team better.  Not that his game is similar...but he reminds me of Iverson or Wall...prolific scorers who can't seem to get their team to the top and whose teams under-performed.  I was bothered by some of the comments here early in the year that he seemed upset because he was not getting the ball where he wanted it or when he was in his spot he was not getting the ball.  It seemed that he felt the team should have been built around him.  Maybe I misinterpreted those posts. 

Here is what I saw.:
The good:
1. He was good around the rim.
2. He was a good shot when he set his feet.  His 3pt % was more than acceptable.
3. He was an active rebounder and was especially effective on the offensive end.  He was hard to box out.

The Bad:
1. He was not a great defender and was not a committed defender.
2. He seldom boxed out.  He was a freelance active player that got a lot of rebounds because of the activity.
3. He was not a good shooter....or at least not a good shooter when his feet where not set. (see below)
4. I don't think he worked well in a team environment...he was not a big assist guy....he had 10 more TOs than assists..
5. He seldom played "big" in big games.  The first Dayton game was lost because of his poor play down the stretch.


Here are key stats for me when thinking about Williams:
When you take away the 3pt shots and dunks he was 61 for 171 or 35.7%.  That is horrible. Included in that 35.7% were a LOT of lay-ups and the % was very high on those shots.  Without the lay-ups, his shooting % would have been in the 20% range.  It did help him get to the line.  Taking FT into consideration...he scored 211 points (including free throws as none came from the 3s or dunks) on those 171 shots.  That is an efficiency of 1.23 points per shot (excluding 3s and dunks).  Sounds OK but is below the average for the team of 1.24 (all shots) and 1.50 (excluding 3pts).  He simply was not a good shooter and took way to many low % shots.  

I think Williams could have been a great player if he played within the team framework.  He shot way to many low % shots when he should have been looking for teammates and moving the ball.  The current version of EW will be missed but I believe the team will improve quicker without him.  If he would have improved his intermediate shot and played a smarter game...I think he would have been one of the top A10 guys the next 2 years. It may serve him well to sit out a year and not be considered the best player on the team.  He will now have to earn his minutes on a new team and do that while not getting an PT next season.  I think you will see a better EW in the future.  I am not sure that would have happened here.

EW certainly had some warts. Most notably his attitude, lack of maturity, & public interactions with the coaching staff were big problems for a large part of the season. But, you lost me at, "he was not someone who made the team better."

-He is not a good or very good rebounder. He is an exceptional rebounder. Pound for pound; probably the best rebounder in the conference. Given the fact that only Carry & Weathers box out with any frequency, I think any criticism in this area has at least as much to do with being held accountable by the coaching staff.

-He is not yet a great shooter but he showed year over year improvment in overall FG percentage, 3pt FG percentage, & FT percentage. How many players shooting stats hold-up after taking dunks & layups out of the equation? With the green light that these players have, it is no wonder that endless bad shots are taken. Do you think that Houston & Wisconsin are interested because they believe he can't shoot? He is more of a scorer than a shooter but with a more mature offense he is likely to be both.

-He is a modern wing/small forward & as such his assist rate is just fine. He had about 80% more assists than either MHughes or Weathers with 1 less total turnover than MHughes & 4 more than Weathers.

-When properly engaged, Eric is an excellent defender. He did some of his best work when the shots weren't falling for him. He has a much better understanding of the switches & rotations than everybody but Carry & Mike Hughes. There were at least 5 games when he was the best defender on the team. His length & athleticism are close to elite & that bothers the man he is guarding.  However, I have to grant that this is where his attitude hurt him most & that was on display for all to see. 

-Eric had some very clutch moments as a freshman. Not so much as a sophomore. However, over the last 3 games of the season, when the games had real consequences, he was the best player on the team.   

Any way you slice it, Eric is a major loss & it will be very difficult to replace his production. It is also very telling that the press has reported his transfer as a mutual decision between school & player.

 

It may well prove out that EW will make a better pro than college player. He's got great potential and certainly could be considered the best talent on the team. But, as we are seeing, the current coach is of the mind that if you don't play as a team, there's no place here for you at Duquesne, which plays the college game. The goal is to win an A10 championship. Dambrot isn't about individual accolades. The sooner anyone who comes to Duquesne and plays for him understands that, then we'll be getting somewhere. I'm glad the school finally has a good coach with an administration that believes in him. They had a good coach before (remember that 4-year stretch of no losing seasons?), but the higher-ups were clueless. Let's hope there's no replay of that scenario again.

It is my intention to trust the process & follow your reasoning both because I believe this is how down programs rise & because it is obviously a formula that has worked for KD in the past.

Williams loss is a big blow to this team. He is a 20-8-4 player when he wants to be. The Dukes just got pushed back a year in their chances to make the NIT.

rittersdiner wrote:

Williams loss is a big blow to this team. He is a 20-8-4 player when he wants to be. The Dukes just got pushed back a year in their chances to make the NIT.

“When he wants to be”?  I don’t think that is a phrase that our coaches are looking for in describing a key player.

You guys are sick. The kid didn’t have to show loyalty to the school or anything. He came from the ground up, in multiple articles from when he first came here it clearly states that the assistant Coach Thomas happened to see him at state finals then he came on a UNOFFICIAL visit for one day while Kratholm was on his official. They did a workout in front of coach D cause he never saw him play and then he was offered. You guys are looking at this wrong way. He probably felt he didn’t have much coming late in the recruiting process so he committed. He was not recruited like we think.

Econ69 wrote:

I checked verbal commit and they show that EW
had three offers--Davis Elkins, Nune and Ark Pine Bluff
Does anyone know why a player with EW"s skills was
not more heavily recruited?

Blew up senior year. No shoe circuit team

CLK wrote:

mm76, I don't understand the comment that Williams was a player "with very low utilization"?  He led the team in minutes played, 3 point shots attempted, and total shots attempted.  In any event, I don't think it is true that KD only wants grinders, and not kids who want to be stars.  I think every kid on our roster wants to be a star.  While KD does not look at HS ratings to guide his recruiting, he certainly has an eye for talent.  Williams was such a kid out of high school.  But as a coach the kids he recruits have to be coachable.  KD has built teams on defense, and team play.  He is not where he wants to be yet, but he has kids, and is recruiting kids, with star potential there is no doubt of that in my mind  

My point was that at this level KD will absolutely have to get the best out of some stars that don't fit his ideal mold in order to accomplish his/our biggest goals. Model teammates with crazy talent are going to Duke & UVA; not Duquesne.

This is not a criticism of EW's departure. There are many, many scenarios under which this relationship wasn't working that don't include anybody being a really bad guy.

Dsnyder15 wrote:

phil95 wrote:

Dsnyder15 wrote:

Here are key stats for me when thinking about Williams:
When you take away the 3pt shots and dunks he was 61 for 171 or 35.7%.  That is horrible. Included in that 35.7% were a LOT of lay-ups and the % was very high on those shots.  Without the lay-ups, his shooting % would have been in the 20% range.  It did help him get to the line.  Taking FT into consideration...he scored 211 points (including free throws as none came from the 3s or dunks) on those 171 shots.  That is an efficiency of 1.23 points per shot (excluding 3s and dunks).  Sounds OK but is below the average for the team of 1.24 (all shots) and 1.50 (excluding 3pts).  He simply was not a good shooter and took way to many low % shots.  

I think Williams could have been a great player if he played within the team framework.  He shot way to many low % shots when he should have been looking for teammates and moving the ball.  The current version of EW will be missed but I believe the team will improve quicker without him.  If he would have improved his intermediate shot and played a smarter game...I think he would have been one of the top A10 guys the next 2 years. It may serve him well to sit out a year and not be considered the best player on the team.  He will now have to earn his minutes on a new team and do that while not getting an PT next season.  I think you will see a better EW in the future.  I am not sure that would have happened here.

EW certainly had some warts. Most notably his attitude, lack of maturity, & public interactions with the coaching staff were big problems for a large part of the season. But, you lost me at, "he was not someone who made the team better."


-He is not yet a great shooter but he showed year over year improvment in overall FG percentage, 3pt FG percentage, & FT percentage. How many players shooting stats hold-up after taking dunks & layups out of the equation? With the green light that these players have, it is no wonder that endless bad shots are taken. Do you think that Houston & Wisconsin are interested because they believe he can't shoot? He is more of a scorer than a shooter but with a more mature offense he is likely to be both.

 

Hughes
Non 3pt/dunk shot %:  55.6    Scoring efficiency on those shots  1.64

Weathers
Non 3pt/dunk shot %:  53.1    Scoring efficiency on those shots  1.53

Carry
Non 3pt/dunk shot %:  51.6    Scoring efficiency on those shots  1.49

Williams
Non 3pt/dunk shot %:  35.7    Scoring efficiency on those shots  1.23



Anyway you cut it....Williams took a LOT of low % shots.  That is NOT a good team player.



: “Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”   Mark Twain

You and I are finished.  You can call me a liar again if you like....it will not change the fact you are clueless.  
 

14ppg and 8rpg in 2 years here. Improved his FG and three point percentage as well.. you can look into that deep but he is huge loss.

Phil, you pose an interesting and fair question.  Based on EW's overall performance I would say yes and no.  You can say that is dodging the question, but my reasoning can be summed by considering two things, consistency and team first.  This past season there were games where EW couldn't hit the back side of a barn, turned the ball over too much (lack of ball handling) and his D was questionable.  He almost seemed to be sleep walking sometimes and not playing with any energy.  Other games he would score, play with intensity and was clearly the best player on the team.  I think when his offense wasn't working his overall game suffered and when you are supposed to be the team's best player, and arguably a leader, this should not be the pattern.  I was also troubled by the apparent need to bench EW a couple of times, which to me projects that the player is disgruntled and that is not good for team chemistry and goals.  So did EW make the team better?  I would lean to the "YES" side of the ledger (especially given his rebounding prowess), but did he enhance our ability to get to a championship team level?  To that I would lean to the "NO" column.  In the long run my prediction is that this will work out the best for both player and school.