ElDuque wrote:

Since this came up on a previous thread, I want to introduce it as a separate topic. My request is that when you reply, you pick one name as "first one out," nominate someone as "first one in" (like the Bracket dudes at NCAA Tournament time), along with at least a sentence of rationale on each player.

So here's my top 10 to get it started:
1. Sihugo Green - three-time all-American who led DU to only postseason championship in school history. Was #1 pick in NBA draft.
2. Chuck Cooper - all-American was 1st African-American drafted by the NBA, had a great career at DU despite adversity. Super classy person.
3. Willie Somerset - all-American poured in 1,605 points in 3 seasons, all-time DU leader in 30+ point games, had a great career in ABA.
4. Dick Ricketts - three-time all-American who is still DU's all-time leading scorer ... and rebounder ... also played major league baseball.
5. Norm Nixon - best pure PG in DU history, could score and direct the offense, blinding speed, great NBA career with multiple rings.
6. Mickey Davis - short career at DU, but extremely talented player who went to NBA and won a ring with the Bucks.
7. Lionel Billingy - possibly the best pure pivot player in DU history; could score and rebound (47 career double doubles).
8. Bruce Atkins - strong PF who ranks among all-time scorers and rebounders.
9. Jim Tucker - best Duke you've probably never heard of; all-American and 1,000 point scorer.
10. Derrick Alston - came close to breaking Dick Ricketts' all-time scoring record, could also rebound and block shots

 

Really can't argue much with that list. Some might consider early players like Becker and Birch, but for a postwar list, that is very solid.

VBC wrote:

1 - Si Green - All American
2 - Dick Ricketts - All American
3 - Paul Birch - All American
4 - Moe Becker - All American
5 - Willie Somerset - All American
6 - Chuck Cooper - All American
7 - Jim Tucker - All American
8 - Herb Bonn - All American
9 - Bill Zoph - Academic All American
10 - Norm Nixon - Honorable mention All American

Slick would obviously be my first out and I'll put Derrick Alston as my next in barely beating out Mickey Davis.  Had Mickey stayed for his senior year he would be the next in and probably would have bumped Norman off my list.

Guys who made All American did so for a reason - they were among the very best players in the country when they played as chosen by the experts of their day.  I feel any list of top players at Duquesne must begin with those who were recognized as the best in the nation during their careers.

 

All American lists don't always tell the story. Those who recieve that honor nearly always are on elite teams. Rickey Green, Brad Davis, and Phil Ford were the All American point guards Nixon's senior year. All played on highly ranked teams. Norman was clearly better than all three, which he quickly proved at the next level. Norman wasn't All American because he wasn't seen much, playing on only one winning team (14-11 at that) in his career.

VBC wrote:

Programs gain elite status by populating their rosters with All Americans so that's kind of a chicken or egg argument.

Also, let's not forget that there were 13 players other than the All Americans that went on to play in the NBA/ABA.  I think those guys have to be higher on the list than players who neither received All American status or played at the highest professional level.  

I recognize the skills and abilities of players like Bruce Atkins and Damian Saunders, but in my opinion they rank somewhere in the 20 - 30 range on the all time list.

I hear what you're saying, but I can't punish Slick by putting him behind Zopf, just because Billy was lucky enough to have the Nelsons, Guziak, Jarrett, and Mickey Davis as teammates, while Slick was stuck with Gumby, and Lonnie McClain.

VBC wrote:

My numbers 9 and 10 were a very, very close call.  I must admit that I put Zoph ahead of Slick because I am sure that my personal friendship with him clouds my judgement.  He probably deserves to be #8, but I'll stick with my list as written.

Of course, all of this is highly subjective which means we are all correct and can have a fine argument over this.
 

I lurk on many other boards, and most of them have these types of posts this time of year. You can only discuss the current team so much. These are fun posts to me.

How about Mike James, a 1998 grad who is still active in the NBA and was a Dallas Mav starter last year.

Moe Barr, Mike Barr and Mike James would be in the 11-20 range for me.

My 11-20 would be in no particular order; Derrick Alston, Mickey Davis, Moe Barr, Mike Barr, Mike James, Jarrett Durham, Lionel Billingy, Dave Ricketts, Barry & Garry Nelson.

Last edited by VBC (8/02/2013 3:22 pm)

Whoops, make that Dave Ricketts in the 11-20 group.

The Other Ones

apluski, I like your idea about there being different floors here.  Well, here's my next floor.  It has players 21-50 in my pretty much off the top of my head listing of all time greats.  I have looked at the all time lists in the media guide a few times recently so some names that I hadn't thought of in awhile were reminded to me.  I did try to think long and hard to remember some of the great players from the long ago powerhouse teams.  My reasoning being that I really only know the names of the great stars of those days so those guys are probably more deserving than recent guys whom I was questioning including as I got towards the end of the list.  I look forward to hearing suggestions as who should be on my list and who should be replaced.  No particular order, but the guys early in the list are the ones who jumped right to mind and I think are certainly in the top 50.  And I'm sure I must have missed someone pretty obvious.

B.B. Flenory
Oscar Jackson
Damian Saunders
Wayne Smith
Joey Myers
Mickey Winograd
Mike Rice
Fletcher Johnson
Rick Suder
Red Manning
Bruce Atkins
Aaron Jackson
Emmett Sellers
Ron Guziak
Effrem Whitehead
Bob Slobodnik
Denny Cuff
Bryant McAllister
Tom Pipkins
Ned Twyman
Mark Stevenson
Ed Dahler
Gary Major
Rueben Montanez
Clyde Arnold
Al Bailey
Paul Benec
John Moore
Christian Johnston
James Hargrove
 

Last edited by VBC (8/03/2013 3:54 pm)

He truly does, duq81, and he was a great player in his own right.  I may be overrating him, but that's what we do in these types of discussions.

Plus, I have a soft spot for him.  I was at a Pirates game in the early 90s at Three Rivers when the Bucs were playing the Cards.  I was sitting in the front row of the brown seats in the outfield close to the Cards bullpen with 3 friends.  Andy Van Slyke hit a homer that landed between the home run fence and the back wall.  Between innings Dave Ricketts, a St. Louis coach ay the time, walked over from the bullpen, picked up the ball and tossed it to my friend Betsy who was sitting at the end of the row.  She just happened to be a tremendous Van Slyke fan and was thrilled beyond belief by Dave's kind gesture. 

Coupla things to note.  First, what's a little scary is that I've seen in person 25-27 of the players on VBC's list at venues ranging from the old Duquesne Gardens to Palumbo.  And it is fun to wax nostalgic and walk down memory lane.  Second, after watching some of Ferry's recruits, it is most comforting to speculate that maybe, just maybe, one or two of his players can be added to this fun list.  It is indeed fun again being a Dukes fan.  My hoops juices are flowing. By the way, if anyone knows how and when a peek at any "pick up" games involving our newest unseen players-McKoy and Watkins and Mason-can be arranged and that information can be legitimately posted, it would be much appreciated.  I'd love to see them and get an overall more complete picture of what the make-up of our team this year will be. Here is an under-appreciated all-time Duke-Jack Wojdowski! And...I think Dave Ricketts still holds the Dukes record for consecutive free throws-56 plus or minus if memory serves me correctly.

Last edited by grammudder (8/03/2013 9:30 am)

I just noticed that I had a duplicate entry in the 11-20 and 21-30 lists so I added James Hargove.

Jeralta wrote:

Bert Seay is 1,543 with Justin Stright at 1,544

Are they ahead of or behind Eriq "Brick" Mason?

I understand VBC's thoughts, as well as the other responses. It's difficult to argue generations, and the way I made my selections was this: The guys who have their numbers retired got the top spots, then, i asked myself the question: If you could pull all of these players out of a Sheldon Cooper time machine, who would be the best players? I respect the accomplishments of Moe Becker and Herb Bonn, but all-American teams in those days were selected more on the basis of reputation and statistics than anything else, and certainly early on, African-Americans were not part of the equation. Plus, those early guys played a lightweight schedule (e.g., Quantico Marines), and basketball was a different game (shot clock, size & strength of players, etc.).

Plus I'm willing to bet those guys were somewhere in the 5-10 to 6-2 range.

Again, I respect the accomplishments, but I personally would stick with my top 10. 

I'd have to give some thought to a second 10, but of players I have seen, Aaron Jackson, Wayne Smith, Mike James, and Tom Pipkins would be the strongest candidates. Effrem Whitehead was a favorite player and gave us one great game, but his career was pretty average. Ditto for John Moore. The Nelsons, Barrs, Jarrett Durham and Jim Tucker should probably be there.


But I would have to think more about it.