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12/07/2014 10:46 pm  #1


Toughness

I've been thinking about this ever since the word "tough" was used extensively both before and after The City Game.

Can toughness be taught?  Can you turn a soft player into a tough one?  Or is it a trait that you should look for in a player when recruiting?

I'd like to get your thoughts on this.

 

12/08/2014 10:09 am  #2


Re: Toughness

IMO,Toughness can't be taught,you either have it or not.

 

12/08/2014 12:25 pm  #3


Re: Toughness

Toughness can be developed. The military does it all the time.

 

12/08/2014 1:12 pm  #4


Re: Toughness

81, in agreeing with you, I prefer the word "instilled." Coached, if you will. I think Jimmy Ferry has to set the tone. If he's tough, his team will respond.

 

12/08/2014 1:54 pm  #5


Re: Toughness

Bob Knight. Bob Huggins. Suzie McConnell Serio.  These coaches make their players tougher.I am sure there are many others who do the same. A critical part of ccoaching or being a drill instructor is to motivate the player or recruit to do things he otherwise would not do, to go beyond previously set boundries.  It happens all the time. I view coach Ferry's comments after the Pitt game as part of his method of motivating this change. Although he was clearly frustrated, he kept his temper and provided a thoughtful analysis of the situation. I was impressed by that. To see how someone reacts in a difficult situation tells a lot about the person. His demeanor struck a nice balance. 

 

12/08/2014 5:17 pm  #6


Re: Toughness

I agree with most of the comments here about being able to make individuals tougher - both physically and mentally.  I've been part of seeing it as both a collegiate athelete and a coach at the high school level for a different sport.

However, there are certain individuals that are naturally tougher than others when they come into any type of program, whether it be in sports or in the real world.  While a good instructor or boss can make them tougher both physically and mentally, the weaker ones still may never get to the level of their peers...

 

12/08/2014 6:29 pm  #7


Re: Toughness

rogabee wrote:

I agree with most of the comments here about being able to make individuals tougher - both physically and mentally.  I've been part of seeing it as both a collegiate athelete and a coach at the high school level for a different sport.

However, there are certain individuals that are naturally tougher than others when they come into any type of program, whether it be in sports or in the real world.  While a good instructor or boss can make them tougher both physically and mentally, the weaker ones still may never get to the level of their peers...

Agree with this 100%. There are always those who have it in spades, as well as those who just don't have it. Most however, fall somewhere in the middle, and it up to the coach to bring out and nurture what toughness is there.
 

 

12/08/2014 7:03 pm  #8


Re: Toughness

I remember Danny Nee giving his famous "I'm-not-quitting" interview to the Post-Gazette.  He lamented that today's players aren't tough enough, & he was gonna make it a priority to recruit kids with toughness.  Of course, Nee quit the day after that interview ran, so we never got to see how it woulda worked out for him.  I suspect it wouldn't have.  The point is, FWIW, there was one coach who didn't feel like he could instill toughness in his players. He obviously thought that you had it or you didn't.

 

12/08/2014 7:27 pm  #9


Re: Toughness

Anyone have any examples of Dukes who made gains in the toughnes department. I thought Achara developed some toughness toward the end of his time here..

 

12/08/2014 8:09 pm  #10


Re: Toughness

BILLY CLARK

 

12/08/2014 8:36 pm  #11


Re: Toughness

Thanks for the insights.  Over a few beers after the Steelers game, I got into a discussion on this subject with a former college head coach.  We both agreed that there are no absolutes, but he strongly leaned toward recruiting tough kids especially if your program hasn't been known for toughness.  And once you have established that culture, ala Knight/Huggins/Dixon/etc., then the issue sort of takes care of itself.  The program/players teach the new players - get tough or wash out.  He also said that with the NCAA mandated limited amount of practice time, it's hard to find time to teach everything that you want to teach; having tough kids takes this issue off of the practice agenda.

I love this comment by pressurecooker:  "A critical part of coaching or being a drill instructor is to motivate the player or recruit to do things he otherwise would not do, to go beyond previously set boundries."  and rogabee's comment:  "However, there are certain individuals that are naturally tougher than others when they come into any type of program, whether it be in sports or in the real world.  While a good instructor or boss can make them tougher both physically and mentally, the weaker ones still may never get to the level of their peers..."

From what I have seen from this team, I think Ferry has his work cut out for him in this department.  
 

     Thread Starter
 

12/08/2014 8:38 pm  #12


Re: Toughness

grammudder wrote:

BILLY CLARK

gram, I thought that Billy was pretty damn tough when he came into the program and just got even tougher.  Scott Grote was a tough kid too in his one year here.

     Thread Starter
 

12/09/2014 7:54 am  #13


Re: Toughness

grammudder wrote:

BILLY CLARK

 
Perfect example of toughness, and instilled toughness. If I can find the article where he talks about the influence of his Mom I will post it. She brought discipline and mental toughness into her son's life, and sure, the circumstances of how he grew up molded him too, but by his senior year he was the complete package. Good call.

Rogabee, good points. You can't indeed turn a lump of sugar into a cinder block, but circumstances can do that.

I think McKoy is a tough kid. I think Colter is a tough kid. As much as you want to see a physical toughness, I'd take a lot of mental toughness - that attitude that when you're on your back you're reaching for sticks or rocks with which to fight back. That feeling that the game's not over until you take your last best shot. That little extra that wins game.

Gimme somma dat!

 

12/09/2014 2:09 pm  #14


Re: Toughness

I definitely think that we have some toughness on this team.  What we don't have is a coherent offense or defense.  


"You have to be realistic about these things."  - Logen Ninefingers
 

12/09/2014 2:22 pm  #15


Re: Toughness

I think AJax is a perfect example of developing toughness.  And I agree with the Phoenix about Clark being a tough kid coming into the program.  I think Monteiro is another good example in addition to Kieron who someone else already brought up.

 

12/09/2014 2:55 pm  #16


Re: Toughness

As we start to throw some names into the mix, it occurs to me that the ones we're naming are more than tough. Some are warriors. Going back decades, guys like John Moore, Bruce Atkins fit that description too.

 

12/09/2014 3:10 pm  #17


Re: Toughness

I think Mike Rice is the all time leader in the toughness department. A little before my time, so this is based on the lore of his playing career. 

 

12/09/2014 7:21 pm  #18


Re: Toughness

Andy Sissinni had to be pretty tough to tangle with Sam Clancey. I think twice in one game.

 

12/09/2014 9:21 pm  #19


Re: Toughness

Yeah, and Sam had Andy by the face, with the refs begging him to let Andy go....

 

12/09/2014 11:04 pm  #20


Re: Toughness

pressurecooker wrote:

I think Mike Rice is the all time leader in the toughness department. A little before my time, so this is based on the lore of his playing career. 

I'll take Hosea Champaine (sp) from Braddock. He intimidated Marshall University so bad at the arena they couldn't wait to get back on the bus. No one wanted to take him man for man. When the refs weren't looking somehow his man always seemed to be getting up from the floor. Shame was that we didn't have him but for a year because he was a talented player 
 

 

12/10/2014 6:53 am  #21


Re: Toughness

apluski wrote:

pressurecooker wrote:

I think Mike Rice is the all time leader in the toughness department. A little before my time, so this is based on the lore of his playing career. 

I'll take Hosea Champaine (sp) from Braddock. He intimidated Marshall University so bad at the arena they couldn't wait to get back on the bus. No one wanted to take him man for man. When the refs weren't looking somehow his man always seemed to be getting up from the floor. Shame was that we didn't have him but for a year because he was a talented player 
 

Yeah, Hosea, and Norm Nixon would have been a great backcourt. Mickey Davila blowing out his knee was another disaster from that era. Those were two things that contributed to our slow decline.

 

12/10/2014 8:10 am  #22


Re: Toughness

On the Dukes last NCAA team our power forward was Baldwin High's Donny Gambridge, a 6-8 ruffian who emerged in his sr year. I saw him in a Steel Bowl Game against highly rated UNLV push and shove 6-11 All American candidate Lewis Brown around underneath in a game the Dukes nearly upset the highly rated Running Rebels. Brown had 3 inches and about 40 lbs on Donny but it mattered little as Gumby clenched his fist more the several times as he talked trash to the LA thug Brown.

He also had a game at DePaul where it was a real battle with Corrazine and Robozine, two Hugh forwards on a great Ray Meyers team. Those Dukes didn't get pushed around and Gumby made his presence known.

A tough Duke.


A diehard fan since 1961
 

12/10/2014 8:15 am  #23


Re: Toughness

Phildog wrote:

On the Dukes last NCAA team our power forward was Baldwin High's Donny Gambridge, a 6-8 ruffian who emerged in his sr year. I saw him in a Steel Bowl Game against highly rated UNLV push and shove 6-11 All American candidate Lewis Brown around underneath in a game the Dukes nearly upset the highly rated Running Rebels. Brown had 3 inches and about 40 lbs on Donny but it mattered little as Gumby clenched his fist more the several times as he talked trash to the LA thug Brown.

He also had a game at DePaul where it was a real battle with Corrazine and Robozine, two Hugh forwards on a great Ray Meyers team. Those Dukes didn't get pushed around and Gumby made his presence known.

A tough Duke.

The Dukes beat DePaul at the Arena during Nixon's senior year. They smacked us good the following year, which was a big year for DePaul, and the beginning of their decade long run as a major power.

 

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